38 Wadcutter Leading

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sjs

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I have generally avoided lead bullets for my reloading but decided to try some Missouri Bullet Co. 148 DEWC Brinell 12 for PPC velocity bullets.

I put together loads of 2.7, 2.8, 2.9 and 3.0 grains of Bullseye with CCI500 primers. The listed velocities for those loads was from 713 to just under 799fps. The OAL was 1.160.

I was shooting my 14-3 bullseye style, meaning slow and single action and was indoors, so the revolver was not hot at any point. I fired 100 rounds.

When I got home and cleaned the revolver there was leading in the chambers right at the throat, but there was no leading at all in the bore. I am not going to pretend to know much about lead bullets but I am surprised that there is leading in the throats but not in the bore.

I used Plug Gages to check the cylinder chambers and none would allow a .356 to pass through the throats. The .355 gage passed through 5 of the chambers but not through the 6th. I do not have a smaller plug gage.

The good news is all of the loads were accurate. The bad news is I dislike cleaning lead out and I have 900 more of these bullets left.

Where do I go from here to try and avoid leading?
 
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Size them down to .357 and then .356 if needed. If your cylinder throats are truly .355, then .356 might be just right. Have you measured the width of the driving bands on the Missouri bullet?Lee has a cheap .356 sizing die for 9mm. It's the Breech Lock system that locks into any press, and all you do is change the inner sizing ring.
 
I too have had a leading problem with Missouri bullets at 12 brinell. Mine were 45acp 200gr. They are very accurate also
Have some 18 brinell for my 44 mag that are fine.
Maybe they are softer then they say?
I have a Lewis Lead Remover that makes quick work of the problem. I have changed bullet manufacturers and have been trying the new poly-coated bullets. They work very well.
 
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Get your self some liquid alox and tumble lube them. The hard lube they use in my opinion is worthless. Almost all store bought cast bullets are too hard, too small and use hard lube. If they used the soft lubes it would be a mess to ship them. A bottle of Alox can go a long way.
 
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The issue with your revolver may be if the cylinder throats are undersized for the bore. If you have .356" cylinder throats and a .357-358" groove diameter barrel, then you've got a bit of a problem.
The gun will never shoot to its full potential unless the cylinder throats match groove diameter or exceed it by .001-.002".
By "true potential", and given your mention of both wadcutters and "bullseye style", my personal reference would be 10 ring accuracy or better on the slow fire target at 50 yards.

Separately, if your lead bullets have a hardness of 12, then they're harder than they should be for wadcutter velocities.

Your 14-3 sounds like a nice revolver. Personally, I would ream or lap the cylinder throats to match or exceed groove diameter.
But, then again, I really enjoy casting my own bullets and seeing them outshoot the factory stuff. It's a fun journey!
 
have a similar vintage Model 14 that had the same tight throats. The answer is to open them up. It's not hard to do yourself but it's also quite easy to have it done. I will PM you shortly with who I use.
 
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6string said:
The issue with your revolver may be if the cylinder throats are undersized for the bore. If you have .356" cylinder throats and a .357-358" groove diameter barrel, then you've got a bit of a problem.
The gun will never shoot to its full potential unless the cylinder throats match groove diameter or exceed it by .001-.002".
By "true potential", and given your mention of both wadcutters and "bullseye style", my personal reference would be 10 ring accuracy or better on the slow fire target at 50 yards.

Separately, if your lead bullets have a hardness of 12, then they're harder than they should be for wadcutter velocities.

Your 14-3 sounds like a nice revolver. Personally, I would ream or lap the cylinder throats to match or exceed groove diameter.
But, then again, I really enjoy casting my own bullets and seeing them outshoot the factory stuff. It's a fun journey!
Click to expand...

About what I think & do....
My M 14 shoots better that me, but I'm getting old!
 
sjs said:
I have generally avoided lead bullets for my reloading but decided to try some Missouri Bullet Co. 148 DEWC Brinell 12 for PPC velocity bullets.

I put together loads of 2.7, 2.8, 2.9 and 3.0 grains of Bullseye with CCI500 primers. The listed velocities for those loads was from 713 to just under 799fps. The OAL was 1.160.

I was shooting my 14-3 bullseye style, meaning slow and single action and was indoors, so the revolver was not hot at any point. I fired 100 rounds.

When I got home and cleaned the revolver there was leading in the chambers right at the throat, but there was no leading at all in the bore. I am not going to pretend to know much about lead bullets but I am surprised that there is leading in the throats but not in the bore.

I used Plug Gages to check the cylinder chambers and none would allow a .356 to pass through the throats. The .355 gage passed through 5 of the chambers but not through the 6th. I do not have a smaller plug gage.

The good news is all of the loads were accurate. The bad news is I dislike cleaning lead out and I have 900 more of these bullets left.

Where do I go from here to try and avoid leading?
Click to expand...
If you fired 100 rounds that were accurate and you're getting no leading in the bore, looks like the leading you are getting in the chamber throats is minimal. If it was of any significance, accuracy would have suffered. If you have the capability to size a few of these bullets slightly smaller, do so and shoot some groups comparing the smaller bullets with the original ones, looking for leading along the way.

If you aren't set up to size the bullets, shoot as is. A BHN of 12 is not too hard or too soft for cast wadcutter bullets. It's close to ideal. I doubt you would see much difference in accuracy or leading between a bullet of 8 BHN vs. one of 12 BHN. The diameter is more important than the hardness. Good luck-
 
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Ream the cylinders to .358 and tumble lube the bullets. I use a mixture of Lee Alex, liquid carnuba wax, and mineral spirits. Tumble lubing the bullets solved all my leading issues in all my revolvers.
 
Ream / hone throats to .3585 - .3590 . Let bore do the final sizing on the way to the X-ring . IMHO there's much better quality bullets than Missouri . Alloy is too hard & lube is horrible joke . For wadcutters Zero , Magnus swaged & Matt's Bullets for cast . First correct throats because if they're not larger than bore you'll have leading at barrel leade / throat / forcing cone. Bullets should be sized to be a push fit with throats ( finger pressure or a pencil ) . As long as larger than bore & lube does its job , leading should be minor .
 
Liquid alox will cost less than $15 a bottle and is not a permanent alteration to your gun. Pour some in a cool whip container, whirl the bullets around and put them on waxed paper to dry. Clean up is easier with disposable gloves. I like to set them upright rather than on their sides. In the dry Rockies, the lube dries overnight, a small fan helps.
If you need to increase throat diameter that is fine, but try this first.
 
I'd guess bullets are a bit too large for the throats. I slug barrels and measure throats for all my guns,(mainly for my info and to make sure throats are larger than groove diameter) and think .356" is undersize for 38 Special (nominal diameter .357"). I would be much happier with .358", assuming bbl groove diameter is .357". I normally size all my revolver bullets to the same diameter as the cylinder throats. In my experience larger than throat diameter often results in lead "spray"/leading on cylinder face and forcing cone/frame and smaller than throat diameter can result in barrel leading...
 
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I'm in the camp that says try the simple things first. To me sizing down bullets to throat size or barely above is an easy cheap test. If you get good accuracy with no leading you're in business. I size all my bullets at or .001 over cylinder throat size, as measured with pin gauges and get good accuracy without leading. If sizing down your bullets fixes the leading but ruins accuracy, then I'd consider lapping the cylinder throats up to groove diameter or just above.

The Alox idea is a good one too, or some 45/45/10 pan lube. It may help, and is easy enough to do. Good luck. Let us know what you find out.
 
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I don't see a problem. If it was me I would wrap some bronze or copper wool around a cleaning brush and brush out the cylinders before I left the range.
 
I suggest you contact Missouri Bullets and ask them about this. They are usually very helpful. Their phone number is on their web page.
 
mtgianni said:
Liquid alox will cost less than $15 a bottle and is not a permanent alteration to your gun. Pour some in a cool whip container, whirl the bullets around and put them on waxed paper to dry. Clean up is easier with disposable gloves. I like to set them upright rather than on their sides. In the dry Rockies, the lube dries overnight, a small fan helps.
If you need to increase throat diameter that is fine, but try this first.
Click to expand...
I have been using a 50-50 mix of Lee Liquid Alox and mineral spirits. Then tumble lubing with that. About any plastic container with a lid will work to tumble them. Been using an old plastic Prince Albert tobacco tub with its lid. I tumble a little while, then leave the lid off for a spell, tumble again every few hours, then spread 'em out on either a sheet of aluminum foil, or waxed paper and let them dry good. I keep the mix in a travel container bottle that holds about 6 ounces; a little goes a long way.
 
It sounds to me like the throats need reaming. If you downsize the bullets to stop the leading you will probably move the leading to the barrel. I reamed my throats and use .358 TEK coated bullets with no problem. My imported model 10 has perfect throats and no leading in throats or barrel. I had two Rugers that needed reamed. I still use one of them and runs good and very accurate with your load of Bullseye at 2.9.
 
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