Unleaded - a new Hornady hunting bullet

The Norseman

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I see Hornady Bullets has a new hunting bullet.

It is called the CX (Copper Expanding). It is a monolithic (one piece copper alloy). Also has a heat resistant polymer tip. It is designed for hunting. It has all the design advancements new to bullets.

These CXs are interesting and made for hunting.
What timing, just what I was looking for.

I’m looking forward to try these out in the .30 cal 165gr. CX
maybe the .270 130gr too.
 

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Just copying the ground-breaking Barnes Bullets lines that have been around for years. It’s a “me too” product.

TSX Triple Shock X (expanding solid copper) bullet introduced ~1997 (patented)

TTSX Tipped Triple Shock X bullet introduced ~2008

LRX Long Range X bullet (tipped, higher BC, lower expansion velocity) ~2012 Not just for accuracy, but like all Barnes hunting bullets, an excellent performer at longer distances.
 
In the Barn

Yea, Yea, some day I’ll try the Barnes and Montana
Hammers, but for now I’ll stick with the Hornady bullets.

They have been there through these uncertain times
and their rifle/pistol bullets have always performed
as advertised. So it’s hard to change from that.
 
I don't need to spend 3 times the $$ on a full copper bullet............
where a lead coated at half the price or less, will drop a little deer, for the ride home.

I have seen where those high dollar bullets kill Elk out at 800 yards.....
but to me, that is not hunting.

However, if you like all copper bullets, go for it.
 
Pb and Cu its all perspective

It's funny, Hunters will spend thousands of dollars
on Pickups, Gas, Clothes, Guns, Scopes, and
Range Finders, but when the subject of Bullets
comes up, it's all on the cheap.

During my research of Cup and Core Lead bullets
and Alloy Copper bullets, I've learned that C&C
Pb fragments and does not retain it's weight.

As where the one piece Cu bullets retain 99 percent of
it's weight. More mass and energy transmitted. Also
less if any metal fragments to spit out when eating.

It's very interesting about all this. Don't get me
wrong on advocating Cu bullets, all I have
ever shot is Lead, it's just an interesting part
of the Reloading Hobby.
 
It is what it is. Reality is that most folks who go hunting must hunt on public land, ie., federal or state. Few people own such land. Rules are rules for bullets used just as with permits required, type and size of game hunted, etc. It is unfortunate that hunters are required to pay for this faux issue, i.e., lead poisoning by bullets. Condors not withstanding, it just is not a issue. But, such rules/laws are not made with any real concern for common sense, etc. So, all who now hunt on fed. land or in certain states must those who insist that CU is better for game animals if not for you, me, all of us. Sincerely. bruce.
 
In the Garden of Good and Evil

As I understand it, the danger in Lead poisoning
comes about when the scavenger or predator
animal eats the small Lead fragments in the dead
carcasses.

With that being said, not sure of the percentage
and time frame in which that happens. During
hunting seasons or the occasional varmint shot?

I just looking at and maybe exploring different
Reloading options.

Thanks for all the different views.
 
Oh, also didn’t any one tell them Lead is naturally
in the ground. Where do they think Lead comes
from? lol

I grew up in South Dakota and interestingly enough, I just completed a month or so of ag flying in Madison SD where much of the anti lead movement got started in the Fish and Wildlife Center located there.

The whole lead free push started in the late 1970s and early 1980s over concerns that ducks, geese and other waterfowl would eat lead shot off the bottom of ponds and lakes and do it intentionally as they need small pebbles for their digestive track.

The lead shot would get ground up in their gizzards and cause lead poisoning. The lead poisoning itself usually wasn’t fatal but was thought to weaken their immune systems and cause greater susceptibility to other avian diseases.

I don’t necessarily disagree with the theory, but the data is interesting. The normal die off during seasonal migration at the time was about 20 million birds with another 15 million taken by hunters. Of that the FWS estimated between 1.6 and 2.1 million birds were killed directly or indirectly by lead poisoning, mostly in the spring of the year and in drought conditions. That’s a 4 to 6 percent increase above normal mortality and losses to hunting.

That made for a weak argument for banning lead shot in part because lead shot resulted in more wounded birds that would not be brought down and counted in a daily limit. Thus the move to steel shot potentially increased the mortality due to hunting above the 15 million by a lot more than the 4-6% they were trying to prevent with a ban on lead shot.

To bolster that weak argument the FWS made the claim that raptors and scavenger birds like bald eagles, hawks etc, were ingesting lead from the carcasses of waterfowl that were killed by lead positioning. Initially they didn’t suggest that Eagles etc were eating the lead shot from the carcasses but instead the claim was made that the lead concentrated in the internal organs of the waterfowl that were then eaten by the eagles, etc. The data to support this claim is a bit weak and centers on roughly 1/5 of dead or injured eagles showing some signs of lead toxicity or signs of lead in blood samples although I have never seen lead itself cited as the cause of death of these eagles. Still, I don’t entirely disagree with the theory.

https://www.fws.gov/news/Historic/NewsReleases/1977/19770708.pdf

A decade or so later that the argument spread to upland game areas. In this case the claim was again made that birds like pheasants and grouse were eating the shot off the ground for digestive purposes, and that once again Eagles, etc would get secondary lead poisoning eating the internal organs of upland birds that died of lead poisoning. They also added the argument that prey animals directly ingested lead from dead or dying birds that had been wounded by lead shot.

The data for that argument was even less convincing but as upland game hunting was more prevalent with about 5 times the lead shot used (but spread over a much much larger area than waterfowl hunting), the “more lead shot must be worse” argument proved effective at the federal level and in some states.

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1135&context=usepapapers

Eventually the argument for lead free bullets evolved when the theory was extended to gut piles for larger game animals like deer and antelope where the theory was prey and carrion animals would ingest the bullet or bullet fragments.

That’s the point where the whole argument became almost total BS. I’ve rarely seen well constructed hunting bullets fragment in a medium or large sized game animal, unless it’s a light bullet pushed to excessive velocity from a magnum cartridge *and* at short range *and* striking a bone. All four of those conditions occurring at once is very rare. In most cases the bullet passes entirely through a medium sized animal like a deer or antelope. In cases where it does not hunters, being generally curious about bullet performance, tend to recover the bullet anyway. If it is retained in the animal it’s generally in the carcass taken home by the hunter and not in the gut pile.

At that point the motivation seems to have been directed more at anti hunting over all and reducing access to public hunting areas by increasing the costs associated with hunting.

It’s bad enough that way too many hunters only shoot a few rounds prior to their hunting season. In the extreme I still meet the hunter now and then who still brags about using the same box of ammo for hunts for X number of years, implying he only shoots a few rounds per year to take a deer, etc.

Requiring more expensive copper bullets potentially has the unintended consequence of hunters practicing and or confirming the zero of their field load even less frequently and doing an even worse job of humanely killing animals in the field with more animals wounded, not recovered and dying later.

A copper bullet in that case might appear to pose less risk to raptors who might feed on the carcass, but they are very unlikely to eat a lead bullet out of a carcass anyway.
 
Excellent post BB57.

Only a very small percentage of the hundreds of millions of monolithic copper bullets Barnes (and now other copy-cats) has produced have been used because of some local government mandate.

The bullets were developed and in use before any governmental entity came up with the anti-lead bias for game hunting. Except of course for migratory bird hunting, where lead was banned decades ago.

They are used because they are more consistent performing bullets, e.g., expansion, weight retention, straight tracking through target, deep penetration. Their popularity is based first and foremost on good accuracy and terminal performance. They kill game as well and most say better than lead bullets. In Africa, hunting dangerous game as well as their big game, most PH’s welcome monolithic bullets because of their predictable performance.

The only downside is increased cost. The argument about spending thousands for gear on a hunt and then cheaping out on a box of bullets is valid.
 
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It's funny, Hunters will spend thousands of dollars
on Pickups, Gas, Clothes, Guns, Scopes, and
Range Finders, but when the subject of Bullets
comes up, it's all on the cheap...

Could not agree more.
$50-60 for a box of bullets is less than the gas used to go hunting.

The bullet does all the work -of coarse the hunter has to deliver it in the proper location with out regard to the design.

It is the cheapest part of the hunt, but the most important.

I know lead and cup core designs has been used with success for years- have used them myself. Once you move to monolithic designs you see they work better.

Off coarse some will be locked in the dark ages.
 
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Excellent post BB57.

Only a very small percentage of the hundreds of millions of monolithic copper bullets Barnes (and now other copy-cats) has produced have been used because of some local government mandate.

The bullets were developed and in use before any governmental entity came up with the anti-lead bias for game hunting. Except of course for migratory bird hunting, where lead was banned decades ago.

They are used because they are more consistent performing bullets, e.g., expansion, weight retention, straight tracking through target, deep penetration. Their popularity is based first and foremost on good accuracy and terminal performance. They kill game as well and most say better than lead bullets. In Africa, hunting dangerous game as well as their big game, most PH’s welcome monolithic bullets because of their predictable performance.

The only downside is increased cost. The argument about spending thousands for gear and a hunt and then cheaping out on a box of bullets is valid.

I’m not making an argument against copper bullets or against solids in general - especially for dangerous African game.

I am making an argument against mandating them, and there are some unavoidable downsides. Physics is what it is and you can’t easily work around sectional density issues inherent in using a less dense material in a bullet. It will require a longer bullet that in turn requires either a faster rifling twist in the barrel for adequate stability, or much higher velocity. That longer bullet them requires a chamber with much longer free bore and a longer magazine. Or alternatively a new cartridge that can supply the necessary powder capacity for the greater velocity and or the much more deeply seated bullet.

At some point I have no doubt we’ll see rifles and cartridges designed specifically for solid copper bullets. We need to let them evolve on their own merits, not by government mandate.

——

I feel the same way about green vehicles as well. Trade in all the fossil fuel burning cars you want, the carbon saved by lithium battery auto technologies will never offset the carbon foot print of making a new vehicle to replace the old one.

We went down that road with the cash for clunkers program and it wasn’t about reducing emissions. It was about bailing out the auto industry, with sharp downsides in terms of inflated used car prices that adversely and disproportionately impacted working class Americans, on top of additional carbon in the air from smelting steel for those new cars.

We’re on the verge of doing the same thing again with green car technology - pushing and potentially mandating tech that is available now, rather than just letting market forces and improved capabilities get us there with better tech, such as hydrogen fuel cell technology that would be more cost effective and not require a massive infrastructure investment in what is probably a transitional technology.

——

When it comes to government policy a great deal of care should be taken to ensure we’re really getting what we think we are getting and ensuring that we fully assess the potential unintended consequences before we start mandating change. Historically we’ve done that very poorly.
 
Could not agree more.
$50-60 for a box of bullets is less than the gas used to go hunting.

The bullet does all the work -of coarse the hunter has to deliver it in the proper location with out regard to the design.

It is the cheapest part of the hunt, but the most important.

I know lead and cup core designs has been used with success for years- have used them myself. Once you move to monolithic designs you see they work better.

Off coarse some will be locked in the dark ages.

It’s more complex than that.

My go to hunting rifles are a Ruger 77 in .308 as well as a pre 64 Model 94 in .30-30 for wooded areas where the shots will be 200 yards or less.

I could get better performance by just switching calibers. The thing is I stay with the .308 for longer ranged hunts as I’ve shot literally tens of thousands of rounds down range 200, 300, 600 and 1000 yards. The 165 gr Game King I use has an almost identical trajectory from 100-450 yards as the 168 gr SMK I use from 200-600 yards. I know the 150 gr SP out of the .30-30 nearly as well.

I buy bullets in bulk 2000+ at a time. If it were just a single box of loaded ammo or a box of 100 bullets per year it wouldn’t be a big deal. But that’s not the case.

I’ll also make the counter argument that shooting bullets with nearly identical trajectories let’s me place the 165 gr SMK I’ll use on a hunt with lethal accuracy and a very high probability of a lethal first round hit with the animal not going more than 50-100 yards before it’s down.

If I were to do 99% of my shooting with lead core bullet on a target range and then use copper solids just for hunting, I would not be able to deliver the same accuracy at the same ranges.

There are unintended consequences that come with that, especially when you scale it up to a state or national policy.

Again, we need to let the technology evolve on its own merits at its own pace. You know, like past advances such as smokeless powder, gilding metal jacketed bullets, spite points, bolt action rifles, etc.
 
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I’m not making an argument against copper bullets or against solids in general - especially for dangerous African game.

At some point I have no doubt we’ll see rifles and cartridges designed specifically for solid copper bullets. We need to let them evolve on their own merits, not by government mandate.

When it comes to government policy a great deal of care should be taken to ensure we’re really getting what we think we are getting and ensuring that we fully assess the potential unintended consequences before we start mandating change. Historically we’ve done that very poorly.

I agree with most of your post, especially as it pertains to government interference and free market advances.

However, there is a big difference between a solid bullet of brass or copper that does not expand meant for deep penetration on dangerous game and monolithic copper bullets that expand.

It is the latter that have been produced by the millions and successfully loaded into cartridges and shot through the barrels of standard rifles and handguns to take game.

You are correct that the lack of density of copper versus lead is made up for by greater bullet length. However that lack of density also allows a lighter bullet to be used to deliver the same performance as a shorter, heavier bullet. Thus the length/weight comparison is not directly proportional.

Yes, that sometimes requires a faster twist in the barrel, but not always. Solid copper expanding bullets have been successfully loaded into all major cartridges without problems in magazine length, feeding or firing for many, many years.

There was an initial learning curve with loading these bullets, and Barnes paid the price for that. While they were the only manufacturer of such bullets because of patent rights, they did the development work that allowed monolithic copper expanding projectiles to be loaded into cases that meet standard SAAMI specs. Everyone else stands on Barnes shoulders, IMO.

These bullets, by all manufacturers, work excellently now. No one has to wait for some future technology to take advantage of their increased terminal performance now.
 
.308

It’s more complex than that.

My go to hunting rifles are a Ruger 77 in .308 as well as a pre 64 Model 94 in .30-30 for wooded areas where the shots will be 200 yards or less.

I could get better performance by just switching calibers. The thing is I stay with the .308 for longer ranged hunts as I’ve shot literally tens of thousands of rounds down range 200, 300, 600 and 1000 yards. The 165 gr Game King I use has an almost identical trajectory from 100-450 yards as the 168 gr SMK I use from 200-600 yards. I know the 150 gr SP out of the .30-30 nearly as well.

I buy bullets in bulk 2000+ at a time. If it were just a single box of loaded ammo or a box of 100 bullets per year it wouldn’t be a big deal. But that’s not the case.

I’ll also make the counter argument that shooting bullets with nearly identical trajectories let’s me place the 165 gr SMK I’ll use on a hunt with lethal accuracy and a very high probability of a lethal first round hit with the animal not going more than 50-100 yards before it’s down.

If I were to do 99% of my shooting with lead core bullet on a target range and then use copper solids just for hunting, I would not be able to deliver the same accuracy at the same ranges.

There are unintended consequences that come with that, especially when you scale it up to a state or national policy.

Again, we need to let the technology evolve on its own merits at its own pace. You know, like past advances such as smokeless powder, gilding metal jacketed bullets, spite points, bolt action rifles, etc.

High Power shooter? Match or Service Rifle? not many would shoot that many rounds in recreational shooting.....

Randy
 
CX

Wow! When I started this Post, I was just trying to
let Reloaders know that Hornady has a new bullet
for 2022.

This Post has bought up some really good conversations.

Thank you all that have partaken. That’s what makes
this Forum the Best.
 

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...I’m looking forward to try these out in the .30 cal 165gr. CX
maybe the .270 130gr too.


165gr. is my favorite weight for 30-06. It hits the sweet spot between weight and speed for this cartridge. Something I have wondered is if the longer copper bullets would spoil this "sweet spot" by taking up too much room in the case and maybe requiring a faster twist.

I hunt in CA with my dad most years. They banned lead statewide I think in 2019. I bought a bunch of Hornady GMX bullets hoping to develop a load just for CA hunting but I haven't experimented too much yet. I picked the GMX over Barnes based on availability and some reviews I read.



What's the difference from the GMX?

That's what I would like to know as well. One thing about the GMX is that it is intended to expand over 2k fps. That's asking a lot for non magnums. I am hoping this new bullet will open at lower velocities.
 
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