I have a smith and wesson 686 plus. I was looking for magnum reloads that i can shoot regulary that wont batter my pistol to death. I decided to reload a light 125gr load - .357sig levels;
using vihtavuori n105 13.8grains with serria 125gr JHP bullet which gives an avarge velocity in a 4inch barrel of 1336fps. The max load is 14.8grains of n105.
Is this load ok to shoot regularly?

1336 FPS doesn't sound like no slouch. If it was my gun I would back them off a little more. I only load heavy if there's a reason, like hunting or SD.

Light bullet loads, e.g. 110 and 125 grain magnum-power loads, have a reputation for flame-cutting and damage to forcing cones. This is because the lightweight bullet gets moving before the powder charge is fully burning.

In my 686, I'd run about nine grains of AA#5, pushing a 158 grain hardcast. That gives you around 1200 fps which won't beat up on the gun.

That's pretty much a 38/44 load? I load something similar using 12gr. of 2400 behind a 158 gr. Makes for some "whump" with less "ouch." Enough "whump" for SD, too, I'd think.

If you really want a fast 125 gr load for a light load that won’t batter your gun just switch to a 125 cast RNFP bullet. Cast lead bullets put a lot less wear on your barrel and forcing cone.

My 686 6" gets very good accuray with w231 & CFE-p with a 125 jhp bullet
that is does +/- 1220fps.
Slower powders also work but I don't need the 1300fps plus loads for just practice drills.

Most standard powders can do 1200 in a 357 revolver..................

Don't worry, you are not going to hurt that "L" frame, even with 1350fps loads......... or 1502fps.

Another option; use 38 Special +P data (or 38 Special +P loads/ammo). I have Ruger, S&W, Taurus, and Dan Wesson revolvers in magnum chambering, some with a few thousand magnum loads and only one that showed any "damage" from repeated hot loads. My S&W 629 w/o pinned barrel, got sent back to the factory for barrel resetting. The barrel was turned a few degrees due to many, many heavy 250 gr SWC loads (I had a raging case of "Magnumitis" during my ealy reloading days and enjoyed the recoil and muzzle blast from hot loaded 44 Magnums). I would not worry about "wearing out" a modern revolver with normal "book" loads...

i also load 158gr JHP at 1135 fps - 11.5 grains of n105 gives a nice recoil but little less then the 125gr magnum load

I like 8.0 gr of Unique or 7.0 gr of TiteGroup neither are barn burners. And you get complete burn in a short barrel.

Remington used to, but discontinued, a 125 gr SJHP load at about 1250 f/s. Much easier on both gun and shooter than the 1400 or so f/s of the full power version. Still did darn well in test media too.

You could also do something similar with plated bullets as others have suggested for practice/plinking. A 125 gr Berry THP at 1.535 in OAL, does 1200 f/s from a 6 inch barrel with 7.8 gr Unique.

Better still are 158 grain loads if you have access to them. They're lower speed, usually less blast. I use 13.0 grains 2400 or 16.2 grains Lil Gun for the same POI in a 45 year old Security Six and slightly newer Speed Six with no issues of any kind.

The knock against Lil Gun hasn't proven true in these guns with these loads.

I must have had a different Lot# of Lil Gun. Mine was Hot all complaints well founded, Even start loads, never got close to Max loads. Love 2400 though.

My 357 Magnums are K-Frames. I load more than a bit of 38 Special ammo for other revolvers of that caliber: from 105gr coated conical lead & 148gr wadcutters up to +P loads, for the most part. I shoot these loads in all these revolvers primarily at the range. I load my 357 Magnum ammo to typical factory velocities for its intended uses. Don't have a J-Frame to shoot 357 Magnum in... Or to complain about.

IMHO one would have to shoot a whole lot of very HOT 357 Magnum loads in an L-Frame before anticipating any damage: perhaps even a whole lot more in an N-Frame? That is what they were truly designed for.

Battering the shooter is probably more likely....?

Cheers!

P.S. I find it interesting that the OP is referring to 125gr bullets at ".357sig levels". The 357 SIG was designed to deliver 357 Magnum 125gr JHPs at velocities and energy in semi-automatic pistols with the added benefit of greatly increased capacity: typically 14 (or 15) rounds vs. the typical 6 (or 7, although not exactly "typical") in a revolver. One does not hear much about 357 SIG loads "battering the gun to death"...

Dunno. I've had no issues with it in 357, 41, or 44 mag.

One doesn't hear much about the 357 SIG, in fact

110,125,158, Bah Hum Bug.......................

If I wanted a nice medium plinker or target load in a .357 Magnum.....

I would settle on the Hornady 140 XTP bullet ............
with Bullseye at 850fps to Unique at 1190fps or any other powder that will work, at these speeds.

Try it, you might like it.

Sounds like a good load - but for plinking XTPs are a bit too spendy for my budget.

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The L frame was created to address concerns of battering in the smaller K frame guns. It should hold up to many thousands of rounds of any .357 load within SAAMI-specs.

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Old standby loads that I've been using for over 40 years:

1. My ".357 Lite" practice load. Cast 158 SWC, 6.5 grains Unique, standard primer. Very accurate, mild on the shooter in steel medium frame revolvers.

2. My standard field load. Cast 158 SWC or 150 SWC-HP, 7.0 grains Unique, standard primer. Accurate, moderate recoil and blast. Proven on several Colorado mule deer (150-250 lbs) at reasonable range.

Both are well under maximums.

As others have noted above, cast or swaged lead bullets are much easier on your firearms than any jacketed bullet.

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I have a Uberti SAA in 357 magnum. I don't consider thee SAA frame conducive to magnum loads for a long life. I also don;t like shooting 38 special in a 357. I load my 357 using 38 special recipes, usually towards the top of the 38 special loads.

The reason for that is that semis work differently from DA revolvers. They can take firing schedules that would make revolvers quit. In an endurance test between my 686 firing full house 158s, and my G17 shooting +P, I'd bet on the revolver to quit first.

Those things are beefy as all get out. If I was worried about it I would just go to 158 grain bullets as some have stated. You will need a new arm first.

“Hot magnum loads” Meaning max loads ?? I’m using 13.8gr of vit n105, max load is 14.8

It should of taken off the law enforcement cartridge but law enforcement have to cater to people who have never fired a gun before / recoil shy

I always go for the bullet weight that is sweet spot for bore size. In 357 that would be 158gr + or - a few grains. Powder charges at approx 1000fps
Mild load, accurate and easy on ears and recoil. I shoot my own cast in all my S&W revolvers. The load is not a slouch to use on miscreants either.
The only revolver I load full house and jackets is old Ruger SBH. Only because it’s been loaded that way since 60s.

i.e., "Hot Magnum Loads" IMHO = using WIN 296 loading 21gr with a 125gr JHP, 18gr with a 140gr JHP or 16gr with a 158gr JHP. Not really what I would call MAX loads, but you certainly know you are not shooting 38 Special +Ps! I don't reload and shoot a lot of these, but I do have plenty and feel they compare favorably with most factory JHPs.

Personally I really like my 357 SIGs, reload practice rounds using plated 124gr bullets @ about 1,250 fps (typically Berrys HBFP-TPs), various JHPs in 115, 124 & 147gr versions and some Lehigh XDs & XPs. Never really found their recoil to be that much more noticeable than most 40 S&W loads out of the same full sized guns: an M&P PC C.O.R.E. and a FN FTX. They really are a BLAST to shoot at the range, though!

Cheers!

I'm far more worried about battering myself than an L-frame or modern K-frame.
125 gr cast bullet + book maximum charge of AA 5 out of my 2.75" 66-8. Hits the steel hard and has that I'm shooting a Magnum feel, while still being economical.

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My .02

13.5gr 2400/158gr LSWC in my 686-3 4"

did it yesterday at the range, very nice load for me

A good "pet" & proven 357 magnum load is :
150 to 160 grain cast SWC
7.0 grains Unique
Standard Small Pistol Primer
This load will not beat you or your revolver to death ...
Been shooting it in a Ruger Blackhawk since 1972 and we are both still in good shape .
Gary

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The reputation for the bullets causing the flame cutting is undeserved.

The working theory at the time was that the hot gases went around the shorter bullet, arrived at the forcing cone first, pre heated it and then caused the bullet and gasses to erode it more than would be the case with a longer bullet. Nice theory but total horse pucky.

The bullets, and in particular the 125 gr hollow point took the rap because they entered service around the same time as a few other things also occurred.

1) A number of departments switched from 158 gr RN and SWC lead bullets to 125 gr Jacked Hollow points;

2) A number of departments got sued for “under training” officers by using .38 Special for training and .357 Mag for duty use. Most departments switched to .357 Magnum for training;

3) The a Model 19 was optimized for a regular diet of .38 Special with occasional use of .358 Magnum, as it was designed at the time when training practices usually involved 38 Special; and by no means least

4) Ammunition manufacturers switched to colloidal ball powders in the .357 Magnum. There were a few very good reasons for this;

- they could be made from WWII surplus naval and cannon powder showing up on the surplus market in enormous quantities;

- they could be made very cheaply in about 2 weeks start to finish, compared to about 6-8 weeks for most other powder types; and

- in a 6” barrel these powders provided about 150 fps more velocity than traditional flake powders.


All of the above occurred at the same time but the most obvious change was the 125 gr bullet, so when forcing cones started eroding at highe rates and those v shaped cuts in the forcing cone started causing cracks in Model 19s at the 6 o’clock position where the forcing cone was thin due to the clearance cut for the crane, the bullets got blamed and people came up with whackadoo theories like the gas reaching the forcing cone before the bullet.

——-

What was really causing the problem was the powder. A max load of a flake powder like Unique is around 9 grains with a 125 gr JHP. However with a colloidal ball powder like Win 296/H110 the max charge is on the order of 21 grains with the same bullet.

That’s over twice as much mass flowing through the forcing cone in the form of plasma and unburned/partially powder grains. In addition, that partially burned colloidal ball powder is much more a abrasive.

Compared to a max load of Win 296 with a 158 gr bullet, the 125 gr load also had about 5 grains more powder, so even with the same Win 296 powder, the 125 gr load had about 30% more mass going through the forcing cone with each shot.

Interestingly you mention the 110 gr bullets but they are generally not associated with more forcing cone erosion. Throwing them under the bus is a logical extension of the short bullet theory.

The difference is that colloidal ball powders are rarely used in 110 gr. .357 magnum loads, for a couple reasons. First, they are just not that efficient with the lighter bullet. Second, people choosing a 110 gr bullet are more often than not seeking a low recoil load, so manufacturers use a faster burning powder - with a charge weight that is half that of a ball powder. That makes a huge difference in recoil as the mass of the charge (whether as plasma, gas, or powder residue) exits the muzzle at about 3 times the velocity of the bullet and contributes proportionally to recoil. Felt recoil with a colloidal ball powder will be about 40% heavier than with a faster burning flake powder, even when muzzle velocity of the bullet is the same.

In a short barrel colloidal ball powders will produce faster velocities - but the difference is a lot less. In a 3” barrel the difference between Win 296 and Unique is down around 50 fps.

——

So to the OPs question, if you want to beat the pistol up less, consider a load with a medium speed powder like Unique, Titegroup, Clays, etc.

Stay away from spherical and colloidal ball powders, but if you do use one, stay with the faster burning spherical powders with max charges no more than 11-12 grains.

And remember that heavier bullets require less powder for a given pressure so heavier bullets do reduce erosion slightly due to slightly reduced powder charges and less mass going through the forcing cone. That’s the only part of the “shorter” bullet myth that has any grain of truth.


——


Edit: Having read most of the rest of the thread, most of the folks suggesting loads are in fact in line with what I’ve described above. Lighter charges of Unique, Bullseye, etc at 1100-1250 fps velocities shoot well and won’t beat you or the gun up.

In the L frame, I wouldnt worry about damage from full loads. They were designed for them.

IMR4227 powder does seem to burn cooler. And with less flash. Work up to an accurate load. I load my 125 gr JHPs to about 1350 for varmints with that powder. Quite effective and should work on 2 legged varmints too.

The story I heard concerning the 125 gr 357 Magnum loads in the M19/66 was the powder used. With the 140 and up weights max pressure was reached inside the chamber. With the lighter bullets and the heavy charges of slow burning powder required to get the high velocities the max pressure was created when the bullet was a ways up the barrel. This creates a lot of heat right at the barrel cylinder gap. The M19/66 has a flat bottom on the barrel for crane clearance that would split sometimes. The new M19/68-8 has been redesigned to fix this problem.

Sorry if I'm repeating something already posted. I didn't carefully read every post because I'm half asleep lol.

IMO its fairly hard to batter an L frame unless you load the ammo over pressure. The L frame was specifically designed to address the weaknesses of the K frame in .357 Magnum. It was made to shoot stout loads without shooting itself loose.

Stick within the posted pressure limits and your gun will be fine as long as it's in good condition to start with.

Now battering the shooter is a different story. Stick with powders like 2400 and AA#9 instead of W296/H110 and 300MP. (all IMO of course)

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If you want cheap loads.............
and you don't mind shooting lead......

my 686 does real well with fast and slow 158 gr swc..........
have yet to shoot any that have a gas check on them.

It has been a while since I shot my 357...........
the last year has been with the 38 J frame and the 9mm pistols
developing loads for fps and accuracy
but that is about to change, soon.

Have fun with those 125 bullets in your 686.

Don't know about the newer s&w l-frames, the old 586's made back in the 80's would need rebuilt at the +/- 100,000 round mark. This was with a mix (only shot 2 loads/2 bullets in it for decades) of 38spl target loads and full house 357 loads.

The timing would need redone and the bbl would need refaced, a new forcing cone cut and re-installed. Not only does magnum powders flame cut the top strap, it cuts the face of the bbl. This is what that 586 bbl looked like when it was retired (+/- 75,000 mag loads).


As you can see a lot of erosion around the forcing cone and flame cutting at the 12 o-clock on the bbl face.

It has nothing to do with using a grain or 2 less than the "max" load of a magnum powder making a mild load. It's the use of the magnum powder itself and how it's used. Magnum/slow burning powders when used in 357mag cases perform at their best with high short start pressures and high-pressure loads.

The short start pressures play a huge role in how complete a powder burns. Bullet selection can aid what kind of short start pressures you're getting. Things like bullet crimp, case neck tension & where/how the bullets nose lines up in the leade of the chambers of the cylinders come into play. A picture of 2 reloads with the top reload having the bullet seated to the recommended oal. The bottom reload has the bullet seated long so that it's shoulder is into the leade of the chamber. Doing this aids in Accuray along with the bullet doesn't have any freebore/bullet jump to get to where it will have resistance. It's this resistance that raises the short start pressure making the slow burning powder burn more efficient.


110gr/125gr bullets:
They don't have long bodies (less neck tension/can't be loaded long)
They don't have long noses (have to jump to get into the leade of the chambers in the cylinders)
You're basically relying on the crimp/crimp groove as the major source or creating the short start pressure.

This is why others are stating they use a faster burning powder. The faster burning powders are more efficient having a more complete burn using the same bullet/brass combo. Reloading programs like quick load will tell you how efficient your loads are. That unburnt powder turns to hot sand which does wonders for your cylinder, forcing cone & bbl.

Did a little testing using different 357mag firearms and dan wesson 357mags that I have multiple bbl's for. Made up a bunch of reloads (500+) using the same bullet cast/pc'd 158gr fn hp and 3 powders. Did head to head testing with 2400 VS H110 VS MP-300. Used bbl lengths of:
2 1/2"
2x 4"
3x 6"
8"
10" contender bbl

At the end of the day 2400 outperformed the others in the 2 1/2" bbl
All 3 powders were within 40fps of each other in the 4" bbl's
With the longer 6"/8"/10" bbl's it was pretty much a tossup between the H110 & MP-300. The 2400 couldn't hold a candle to the other powders in the longer barrels.

I'd be taking a hard look and some n320/n330/n340 powder. Seeing how you're using a 125gr/13xxfps load. A faster burning powder can easily get you there. You may have more chamber pressure, but you loads will burn more efficient/cleaner along with having more consistent ballistics.

Myself, I use lead/cast bullets. Easier on the cylinder and bbl along with getting higher velocities for the same weight bullet/same load then their jacketed counterparts. 158gr cast bullets (2 different bullet/2 different loads) testing blammo ammo/plinking loads doing 6-shot ggroups @ 50yds. The target looks like a mess but "hey" was simply testing loads. That 6.0gr load of bullseye has a 189pf/you 13xxfps 125gr load has a 166pf (power factor).


I used a cramer "hunter bullet and mihec 640 bullet in a 686 to shoot that test target. A 5.5gr load of bullseye on the left 2 targets & 6.0gr on the right 2 targets. All 4 loads did 2 3/16" or less.

Easier on the 686 then your loads, my loads hit harder & +/- 2" accuracy @ 50yds is good enough for blammo ammo.

I have loaded 125 grain JHP bullets in the 357 Magnum using max charges of H-110/W-296. This combination produces velocity close to factory full power 125 grain JHP 357 Magnum loads of the 1970's-90's, but it also produces a flash and blast that made shooters on either side of me back away. I never tried them in my Model 19, but I did develop these loads in a Dan Wesson 15-2, using 6 and 8 inch barrels, and a 6 inch Ruger GP-100, both survived. This was more than 20 years ago and I would not bother trying these loads today. Bullet technology has evolved and with modern JHP bullets, you don't need the blistering velocity and the erosion damage brought by large amounts of spherical powder.

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