older .458 bullets

[444 Magnum]

I have a quantity of each of these bullets. Diameter is .458, weight is 300 gr.

Please tell me what I have. I assume they're for a .45-70. Not cast for a gas check? Is that important?

What coating is on the middle one and thoughts on it versus plain lead.

Will a Marlin micro-groove barrel fire them?

Looks like the lubricant is deteriorating of the one on the right. Is that important?

Thanks for any information.

Update- 1st two bullets made by now defunct National Bullet Co. and measure .459. Middle bullet is described as "copperized". Third bullet, unknown maker, measures .461.

 

[DWalt]

Probably for .45-70, but there are other .45 cartridges which also use .458 bullets, such as .45-90, .458 Winchester, etc. Generally, lead bullets do not perform well in Marlin mićrogroove barrels.

 

[rockquarry]

Cast bullets, even those of wheelweight alloy will work fine and give decent accuracy in a Marlin Micro-Groove bore, but best results will be with oversize bullets; in my experience .459"-.461" are required, but try what you have. They might obturate enough (depending on load) to work well.

Plain base bullets usually work best at about 1,400 - 1,500 fps. Don't worry about the lube. Try them as is. Use a variety of powders if you have them. Use Lyman data (I'd start with Springfield data) for the closest bullet weight they have listed.

 

[twodog max]

I had problems with hang fires in the 45/70 and IMR 4198 when using light ,300 grain, bullets at the starting loads. I would suggest using faster powders for bullets in that weight range.
As far as micro groove barrels go I have no experience with that rifling and cast. However if you can believe what one sees on the net decent accuracy can be obtained. It is all fun and games anyway play with it and see for yourself.

 

[Drm50]

My lightest cast was the old 322gr Gould Express HP. Had no trouble shooting it with Unique in RB and Trapdoor. In Marlin 1895 I was running IMR-4198. Had outstanding accuracy with this 322gr bullet in the Marlin.
When I scoped it went to 300gr JHP / IMR-3031 and loaded hot.
I have the 322gr HP, 366 RN and two 405gr molds, RN & RNFP. All shot decent in Marlin. It’s common knowledge Marlins need cast of greater diameter than jackets. New had any trouble with cast in them once you find their preference.

 

[rockquarry]

I no longer have a Marlin; the only .45-70 I have now is a Shiloh Sharps and I haven't shot it in a good while. The Lyman #457122 (330-340 grain flat base HP) already mentioned is an excellent bullet that provides a more pleasant recoil than many of the heavy bullets unless you load it hot.

Years ago, gunwriter and recognized cast bullet expert C.E. "Ed" Harris mentioned in an article or a column that he had best results in the Marlin using a hard bullet. He knows far more about cast bullets that I do, but I've seen pretty good accuracy using wheelwight alloy bullets of around 13-14 BHN.

 

[Skeet 028]

The only bullet that I could get to shoot in my 45-70 Marlin was the light 122 Lyman hollow point and the same bullet with flat point. I used 4198 and Reloader 7. Even then it was not a pleasant rifle to shoot. I sold the rifle mainly because it didn't shoot other cast bullets well. I got a cowboy model with regular Ballard rifling and it shot most cast... It really wasn't pleasant to shoot at all. I eventually sold it also. My Contender shot a bullet like this well. But my thank you Jesus gun... Shot well for the first 4 or 5 shots...then I thanked Jesus for letting me live through the experience. I really could NOT handle the recoil especially with the heavier bullets. Still have some loaded ammo for it around here.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I have had several Micro grooved Marlin rifles. Cast bullets shoot well if kept to 1400 fps and are sized 1 or 2 one thousandths over bore diameter. All my current Marlins have the Ballard style refiling they used before Micro Groove and in the "Cowboy Action" series.

A 45-70-300 will work on any North American Problem you encounter!
1300 fps is considered Black Powder velocity, but smokeless works fine also. I have an 1895 Guide Gun. My load for "Kill Anything Right Now" is a IMR-3031 load out of Lyman #45 using a 405 grain gas check bullet at 2150-2200 fps. Extremely accurate and a little hard on the shoulder!

300 grain bullets really pretty mild up to 1500-1600 fps, if you are used to shotgun slugs or High Power Rifles.My rifle was shot only twice by the previous owner and his friend with factory 300 grain. they screamed it almost killed them. They were only used to 22 LR and had a bad habit of not shouldering any rifle properly!

Just because your rifle can handle the mid pressure loads does not mean you want or need to! 45 caliber 400 to 500 grain bullets at Black Powder velocities exterminated the millions of buffalo on this continent. A deer, a mean dog or a terrible human is a much softer target Than the ton and a half of bad attitude a male buffalo represents!

Ivan