Does anyone have load data for .38 S&W? Or a source for dies, bullets, casings, and molds?

I have seen a period (sometime in the 1890s I believe) advertisement that specifies a 146 grain bullet over 15 grains of powder, but which bullet was that, and which powder? I assume black powder but which one? 2f, 3f, or 4f? It advertised a penetration of 4.5 7/8 inch pine boards, what’s that translate to in ballistics gel? And is that realistic?

I would like to replicate the British .38/200 load, what is the data on that and can that be safely used with an 1897 Safety Hammerless?

The British 38/200 military load is now considered too hot for the Safety Hammerless and similar revolvers.

The Colt 38 Super Police loading of 38 S&W uses a 200 grain Lead RNFP bullet that is still considered safe in GOOD Condition top break revolvers.

My old copy of "Cartridges of the World" lists 3.1 grains of Unique powder. I have never found an exact replacement bullet, but in the 1980's I used cast RN 200 grain bullets for 35 Remington with very good results. These "Hard Hitting" and "High Energy" loadings are only 176 foot pounds of energy. They do seem to have a better penetration effect than the 146 grain lead RN loading from my experience. These guns were not designed to use jacketed bullets!

My Safety Hammerless, is from 1896, and I won't use the Super Police load in it! My 1921 Regulation Police (Hand Ejector) does get an occasional cylinder of that Super Police Load.

Ivan

The one time I reloaded 38 S&W-over 40 years ago (!) I found an HBWC over 2.7 grains of Bullseye gave me excellent accuracy in my 1932 No. 2 Mk 1 Enfield.
The RCBS website lists 38 S&W Dies, a shellholder, Lyman lists dies.

I have used these in my Enfield. You may want to use the lighter ones in your Smith.

38 Smith & Wesson

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

I use the ones on the right.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Matts bullets lists 4 bullets for the 38sw. The 200gr are listed as Webley.

145g LRN is the right bullet available today. Missouri Bullets have them in stock, which is amazing given the fact that so many calibers are still out of stock.
Missouri Bullet Company

As for powder, I do not shoot BP because of the clean-up issues, soap and water inside and out. There are many loading tables out there, but if you go to Hodgdons site and HP-38 powder, you will find a good load that is safe for top-break revolvers.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Check the Lyman books for load data.

I picked up a Colt Police Positive and a British Victory Model I few years ago. The only factory ammunition that I had was some very old .38 S&W and Colt NP stamped rounds. At this time there was nothing for factory stuff in this calibers at the local stores.

I bought a large qty of new Starline and some 158 gr lead rn cast from a local supplier. I used AA# 5 for this run and it worked well.

I later bought 550 new PPU brass and 1,000 Missouri Bullet .361 dia 146 gr. I switched to W231 for this run. So far so good. I like the Missouri Bullet .361 dia. I seated the bullet to the same depth as the .38 S&W factory round. W231 meters very well from my RCBS powder measure. It also goes a long way for the light charges in the .38 S&W and .32 S&W Long.

Lyman cast bullet book and Speer manual have data for this round.

If you are an avid reloader (as I am) and don't own a 38 S&W die set (as I don't!) you may be in luck. You can mix and match to gather a set of "Mixed Dies" for this caliber.

For a suitable FL Sizing die, you can substitute a 38 Super/ 38 ACP FL Die.
For a flaring die a 38 Super, 9mm, or sometimes a 38 special flaring die may be used.
For Seating and Crimp dies, I use 38 Super or 9mm for seating to length and a 9mm Taper crimp die last.

Most brands require a different shell holder for 38 S&W versus a 38 Special.

Another FYI tidbit is: Some (but not all) factory 38 special revolvers will chamber and fire 38 S&W. My F-I-L's 1958 issue Model 10 chambered 38 S&W, one of his cadet classmates had the next consecutive serial number but would not chamber 38 S&W! My Models 10-7, 36 no dash & 49 no dash do not chamber 38 S&W, but my Model 28-2 & model 686 no dash. Those of you with Winchester/Rossi Model 92 and Marlin 1894 357 carbines, the 38 S&W (Colt 38 Super Police) and 38 Short Colt will usually jam up and require disassembly to clear! JUST LIKE THE INSTRUCTIONS SAY! (Ask me how I know.)

Ivan

Buy a 38 S&W die set for $35 - $40, well worth the price. 38 S&W dies are all larger than 38 Special and you should not use 38 Special anything to load this caliber. Bullets are different, .357 vs .361, dies and shell holder is different, and brass is different.

In addition, I own many 38 Special S&W revolvers and 38 S&W will not chamber in any of them without using a hammer!

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Here’s a link to some reliable loading data. Reloading The .38 Smith & Wesson - Reload Ammo I load batches of several hundred so its beennaxx CD while since loading but have used 231 most of the time. I also use the Missouri bullets with starline brass and Lee 38 S&W dies. I’m loading to minimums and shoot them in my terrier. No issues and very pleasant to shoot.

Here is some load data from the Lyman Reloading Handbook 45th Edition copyright 1970.
You can also find .38 S&W reloading data at the MD Smith website (reloadammo.com), where they distinguish between loads for “break top” and solid frame revolvers. (Just noticed - same as the site above from .38SuperMan)

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One more comment. Starline has the 38 S&W brass available according to their website. Looks like you can reload 500 Missouri bullets and 500 Starline brass and load more than you can shoot in a lifetime.

38 S&W Brass - Small Pistol - Brass Cases

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I use RimRock 125gr lswc with 2.4 gr ww231 in mine.

Robert

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

I have used 0.361 diameter lead bullets at 158-178 grain for years in Webley's and S&W 38 S&W revolvers (all from around 1940 vintage). No problems at all and certainly accurate enough at 10 yards to "spoil somebody's day". Dave_n

For the 38 S&W FCD the Lee 9mm Makarov works well.

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

.358 lead bullets will work fine in a .38 S&W revolver if you want to use them. If you have a solid frame revolver, it is easy to reload the .38 S&W to produce standard .38 Special ballistics if that is where you want to go. But do not shoot those loads in an old top break revolver. The real challenge is developing a load that shoots close to the point of aim. Indeed, some .38 Special revolvers will accept and fire .38 S&W cartridges. Most will not. The same can be said about using .38 Super cartridges. I also reload .38 S&W using a .38 Super sizing die and 9mm expanding and seating dies. I have been doing that since the 1970s.

So I have a top break third model Safety Hammerless, so it looks like I’m black powder only?

Does anyone have the black powder load data? Is it 15 grains like the old add shows or can it be loaded hotter? Also, will Swiss 4f work?

Assuming I did that, would that give me any extra power vs the very very light commercial smokeless loads that seem to be available? In other words is it even worth hand loading?

9245, I would use smokeless powder, as black powder is a mess to clean up, but I would not assemble any hot loads. Starting loads only, as the manuals suggest.

I use the Missouri 145 gr. bullets with Unique powder. Also tried some bullets from Oregon, don't remember the company, or load data, but just tried them out a couple days ago, and at ten yards shot 4 inches low. Have to figure that one out.

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Kevin in Oregon

Safety is why I am now looking at black powder loads.

Also, I thought it would be interesting to shoot using full period loads rather than the popgun load commercial stuff. But I have an ulterior motive for working on a “hot” load, if necessary it would be nice to have a defensive load, I have one for everything I shoot, even the cap and balls, it’s just how my mind works. If I HAD to than… that kind of thinking. (FYI my “defensive” cap and ball load is 30 grains of 4f swiss under a .44 conical, pretty much as hot as it is physically possible to load an 1858 Remington)

Black powder or smokeless, a load can be safe or dangerous. Black powder is not inherently safer than smokeless, nor the other way around. I have an old black powder German Model 1883, and I have never fired a single black powder load in it; only smokeless.

I wouldn't consider using this or any of my cap-and-ball revolvers for self-defense, I would use a modern handgun, preferably a 9mm autoloader.

Like Raljr1 I seem to buck the trend by loading lighter bullets in 38 S&W. Years ago I found a homemade bullet mold that throws a 126gn SWC at .360 diameter. I think someone was trying to make a bullet for 9x19 and made it too large. 3 gns of Bullseye shoots to POA in my Webley. Yeah, the Webley is technically a top break and this is a solid frame load, but not all top breaks are made the same.

My more or less standard .38 S&W load uses a 125 grain .358 lead bullet, truncated cone, and 3.0 grains of Bullseye or similar. Safe to shoot in top breaks. It shoots fairly close to POA.