Well heck, why not? It works w/ rifle brass...

I'm one of those guys that likes to get good mileage out of my brass - w/ out compromising accuracy.

My current batch of .45 Colt Starline brass is going on 6X fired, & I've noticed that cast bullet accuracy from known good loads, seems to degrade w/ multiple X times fired.

All other factors being equal, I assume that this is caused by work hardening of the brass.

Lot of guys seem to think that annealing brass is voodoo science, but I've found it to extend brass life - & restore accuracy potential to centerfire rifle case necks. Just never tried it on revolver brass.

Any thoughts? Spinnin' my wheels - or worth a try? Thanks in advance!

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Regards - GCF

I am sort of in doubt that any degradation in accuracy is due to hardening I think that straight-walled brass gets worked far less than rifle brass so does not work harden to the same degree.
I just had to retire 2 .44spl win cases w/split s. I almost had a ceremony for them, very old, not balloon headed but countless reloads.
I recently retired some military brass (,45acp) with dates in the 40’s and one 35. The neck tension was still fine after resizing and it was not too short. I just felt that it had done enough.

I would like to hear from some of the others on the forum, annealing would be easy enough, but IMO you will be fixing something that is not broken.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Anealing is simple, but is one of the many things I do to rifle brass that I do not perform on straight-walled pistol brass.

Even shooting 100m pistol silhouettes, the problems are the wind and my wiggles.

Thanks for your interest & input.

The chambers on the revolver in question (625-6 MG), seem to be cut pretty tight, & the throats .452". Additionally, I load primarily for modrate pressure accuracy, & avoid the "make it a magnum" trend. As such, I don't think that the brass is getting a huge workout.

That said, it has been subjected to a number of different loads (all cast, but different powders & load levels), that could conceivably have some effect on uniform bullet tension. That's the theory here, anyway...

I would submit for your consideration, that all cases were sized & trimmed +/- .002" when new, & just for S's & G's, are checked for OAL after every sizing. Seems like SOME - but not all, required trimming again at 3X or 4X, to bring the entire batch back to the original +/- .002 spec. I guess my thought is that the OAL variation is due to different load levels, & that the same factor could have an effect on neck tension.

Out of curiousity, do you typically shoot one pet load per caliber?

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Regards - GCF

Well I hear that, but I'd bet you know it when you pull a shot... Problem here is tight shot clusters (accompanied by fliers), from a gun that will shoot better.

Can't rule out the human factor 100%, but I've just got a feeling that this is a component issue.

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Regards - GCF

Tried measuring the bullets for consistent size?
All throats same size?

Throats are satisfyingly consistent at .452", & the Ballisticast mould, Keith design bullets are a snug slip fit - right at .4515". Hardness is estimated by the caster as between 11 - 12BHN.

The irritating thing is, that I have gotten better performance from these bullets in this revolver. Consistency seems to be degrading, & I don't think it's the gun. Guess that's what got me thinking about the brass. I suspect this latest theory is going to bug me, until it's either proved right or wrong...

In truth, I'm a bit of a hand loading rookie. Been loading auto pistol (.45acp) since the mid 90's, but didn't really start thinking about the technical end of handgun loads, until I started loading highpower in '02.

Lot of potential component factors involved in any type of hand load, much less chasing that one ragged hole group, w/ cast bullets in factory revolvers. Again, your interest is appreciated.

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Regards - GCF

I would question just what the "brittle" or "harden" brass would do in a straight walled case to degrade accuracy?? The Only thing I can even think of is more bullet grip with the same crimp setting of the die.

Are the case mouths splitting?

Heck I don't even bother to do it with bottle necked rifle cases. Brass doesn't last forever. While pretty Scotch I don't have a problem with buying some brass every once in a while.

Lotta guys think I'm NUTS for even worrying about accuracy from a 4"BBL revolver. I've even been accused of being a nit picker, for trimming brass...

The heart of my (so far unproven) theory is, that a batch of .45 Colt brass that has been subjected to multiple different load levels ("new caliber to me" load developement in this case), will have lost CASE TO CASE CONSISTENCY due to uneven work hardening.

The theoretical effect of this, would be sort of like mixing your .451" bullets w/ your .453" bullets, then loading them up & expecting same point of impact. Another possible analogy, would be mixing heavily crimped & lightly crimped cartridges.

More bullet grip with the same crimp setting is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as it is consistent - from case to case.

Case mouths are not split, & in fact when trimmed, look great. Primer pockets are still snug. I think this brass could have a lot of life left in it, as it even takes a nice shine. IF it has lost consistency, & IF it can be restored w/ a little propane after supper, I say why not? I can always save the new stuff for later.

Besides, the way things are going politically, good brass could end up being worth it's weight in gold...

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Regards - GCF

Well, maybe, but it goes against everything I've experienced. I've shot tight groups even with very old brass that was splitting some.

I'd be trying to super clean the barrel to be sure ALL of the lead and copper is out of it.
I would also get very religious about measuring every bullet to see if some small ones are in there. I like a little over rather than a half thousandth under.

My revolvers are little SOBs about ANY stray metal in the barrel or even a half-thousandths undersized bullet, but they really aren't sensitive to what goes on with the case, except for a very slow powder like 296 needing a tight crimp.

Really can't take issue w/ your (or anyone else here) observations.

I can tell you that my most recent session started out w/ a very clean bore, & cylinders. This revolver has never known a jacketed bullet, & it is not prone to leading. Great little pistola, in fact.

A fouling group (6 shots / lightest load) was fired before I started worrying about groups. Powder, primers, bullets, & brass were the same old / same old.

Again, it's possible that I'm a bit off my game, as lately I've been concentrating more on my 1911's & recently acquired Ruger No.1-A in 7x57.

Thing about it is though, a guy usually has a pretty good idea when he has pulled a shot...

For the record, I just put the blue flame to 30 pieces of 6X Starline, so I'll have an update at some point in the future. I will tell you though, if I do not see any improvement, I won't be annealing anymore .45 Colt brass for a while. Initial cleanup after annealing, is a major PITA.


Here is a little light reading, if anyone has an interest:

Beartooth Bullets > Tech Notes > Getting the Most From Your .44 Magnum

Case neck tension - Cast Boolits

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Regards - GCF

I have noticed loss of accuracy with subsequent loadings with 100 yard revolver shooting in 44 Mag and 357 Max. Brass seems to lose it's "springiness" as it work hardens. It got to the point with my 357 Max that I could load without expanding. I anneal 357 Max brass and would consider annealing brass that gets hard enough to lose accuracy.

I think you are on the right track. I spin the brass in a socket on my cordless drill in a dark room. Dull red glow and drop in water. It goes pretty quick and can refresh expensive brass.

If cleanup is a chore you must have gotten it too hot. Done the way I do it, it looks like factory annealed brass.

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To be a rock and not to roll

Well that's somewhat encouraging. Thanks for your input.

I have only recently (last 6 months) started annealing anything. Pretty much brought on by progressivly difficult bottleneck cartridge neck expansion. Annealing helps.

Before I found the cojones to try it, I undertook an info gathering mission - picking the brains of everyone I know, & online searches. Lot of info on the Accurate Reloading forum.

Seems however, that there are as many ideas on proper technique, as there are hand loaders that anneal brass... Far as I can tell, factors in the equation are:
1. thickness of brass
2. type of heat source
3. to spin - or not to spin
4. distance of case neck from heat source
5. water cool, or not
6. how long to apply heat

Like you, I spin the brass w/ an electric drill - but only air cool the brass. I use a small propane torch, that screws directly to the top of propane bottles that are normally used in a Coleman lantern.

I try to hold the neck, so that it stays in contact w/ the inner blue flame, & then give it a 12 second count.

I would say that it is just starting to take on a dull glow by count #10 or 11, so it is possible that I could back off from a 12 count - to 9 or 10.

Had a guy tell me once, that it is really not even necessary to induce a dull glow - & that the metal "darkening" that occurs just before the redness is sufficient.

Water cooling aside, how does my current technique compare w/ yours? Also, do you time the heating process - or just go by color change? Thanks.

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Regards - GCF

You might have one chamber in the cylinder that has a problem. Solution is to number the chambers, and shoot an individual group with each chamber, and compare group sizes. It's not unusual for a revolver to have one chamber that is much less (or much more) accurate than it's siblings.

No, it is my personal curse to keep fixing things that are not broken. I usually load heavier than target levels, haven’t shot 3.7 grs Bullseye in .45 acp for years, went to 4.0, then 4.5, now I shoot AA 5 & VV350, all I guess for variety.
My straight wall cases seem to all keep shrinking. I load .357, 10mm, .44spl, very rarely .44mag, & .45acp.

If I had access to a Ransom Rest, and a nice range to use it, decent weather, assuming outdoors, I would probably be consumed with passion to trying to squeeze the last MOA or would it be SOA out of the loads.
It has been my limited experience that those who do it, confine themselves to one chamber of their revolver to avoid confounding the results.

Reality has reared it’s ugly head, in shooting a very fine .22lr barrel on my M41 from a rest I can see that Tenex and Master X group better than CCI Stan Vol. However, shooting off-hand, I don’t group better with the high cost stuff.
My conclusion is work on me, not the ammunition.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Relatively sure I can rule that one out, as I'm shooting a load that has proven consistently accurate in this revolver. The problem is not that it's always thrown fliers along w/ tight clusters, but that it seems to be beginning to. Hence my thoughts on the brass.

That said, the oddball cylinder syndrome you describe, is both for real - & all too common. Fortunately, whoever built this one, was paying attention - & it's a long way from worn out.

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Regards - GCF

Well that's either a curse - or a blessing. I think most tech minded hand loaders are similarly afflicted.

As I hope to learn how to shoot some day, I really have to force myself to resist the urge to experiment, stick to known good loads, & off hand practice. Old guy told me once, that the only way to master the Gov't Model .45, was to stand *** deep in spent brass. Whoo hooo. Good one, right?

BTW, since you have a source for VV powder, give N-330 a try (if you can find it) in your .44spl & .45acp. It's a winner.

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Regards - GCF

I suppose that if it bugs you, you will have to take a shot at it. If I were inclined to join you in this madness I would design an experiment.
Something like this; you will have to buy some new brass, I suggest Starline, enough for the whole experiment.

If you can shoot a tight group from a rest with five shots it would go something like this:
Load 100 rounds in new brass.
Fire 50. Record five from selected chamber.
Load 45 (2nd firing) and fire 40, Record first 5, shoot another 5 of first gp, record. Save 5.
Load 40 ( 3rd F) and fire 35, Record first 5, shoot another group of 5 of first gp, record. Save 5.
Load 35 (4th F) and fire 30, record first 5 and shoot another gp of first gp. record.
Load 30 (5th F) and fire 25, record 5, shoot and record 5 of first gp.
Load 25 (6th F) and fire 20, record 5, shoot and record 5 of first gp.
You can fire the extra shots from any chamber, mark the chambers and record them if you want to generate lots of data.
Now if I haven’t lost track, you should have a target and at each level of use plus a control target. Further you should have five unfired rounds from each level of use.
If you see no trend you can continue for another 3rds.

Naturally you need to establish a cleanliness routine and follow it at each stage; fouling shots should be the same each round. Naturally it should be the same load, same powder lot, same primer lot, and fired under similar conditions.
You will have the ability to reshoot a round should you see anomalies in the data.

Measure the brass new and after each round. If you see a high or low one you might consider pulling it from the group. I probably wouldn’t but if you are trimming brass, it might be in line with your practice to put aside the longest one.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Hmmm, impressive. Gonna have to sleep on this one though. Seriously...

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Regards - GCF

There is one other isse. A revolver is NOT a closed system. There is enough variation in most to account for any and all discrepancies. Even when the cylinders are lined bored and the BC gap is uniform the ammount of gas escaping through the BC gap is not and can not be the same from shot to shot, even on the same hole each time around with the same exact load.

I have nothing but time and tinker with rifle brass and loaded ammo for hours and hours and even my hunting loads in non specialized rifles have had every bench rest trick known to man done to them. I loaded for my 6mm Remington #1 for antelope hunting this year. I started with 500 cases and weighed each and every one and segragated them by weight with .01 of a grain. I then checked case capacity and rejected more. I then turned all the necks to a uniform thickness. All brass intended for use had the flash holes drilled and uniformed. All primer pockets were cut flat and square and to a unifrom depth. All flash holes were de-burred and chamfered on the inside. A case mouths were chamfered on the lathe to a uniform depth/angle after the case mouths were squared. All bases were miked and then trimmed to a uniform thickness. All brass was primed with bench rest primers using a RCBS primer seating press and then check for uniformity. The powder charges were dropped and then trickeled to within .01 of a grain. This requires more than your average reloading scale. I seated 6mm Berger Bench Rest bullets that actually work well for hunting thin skinned antelope after weighing them and segragating them by weight to the nearest .01 of a grain. (Berger only gaurantees to with .02 of a grain) The noses were uniformed on my nifty little mepate trimmer. I aleready know the correct seating depth. All work was done using Redding Competition dies except seating with was done with a RCBS Competion seating die. (like the hole in the side to drop the bullet in better than Redding) They shoot sub 1/2" groups out of my 6mm #1.

I have a bullet grip/pull gauge but only use it for benchrest/varmint rounds. Even I consider SOME things over kill.

I think I probably have about 100 hours in the 2 boxes of 20 of loaded ammo. Of course doing none of this has anything at all about killing an antelope and everything to do about my hobby and killing time in the middle of the night when Mr Back says we are staying up tonight. :-(

Load for the 44 mag. Cast the bullets out of recycled wheel weights. Use a 4 cavity Lyman 429421 mold. Size and lube said bullets on RCBS Lubrisizer. Grad some brass off the shelf and clean the primer pockets. Seat the CCI300 Primers on the press. Throw the 2400 in the machine and throw the charges. Seat the bullet. Take the 44 out and shoot the bullets. Total time if I work slow to load 2 boxes of 50 once the bullets are caste and lubed, well under an hour.

I didn't do anything different in the three different competative disciplines that I once competed in. IT's a revolver.

I am the weak link in the chain. I can't blame a loss or a miss on the ammo in over 45 years. I'm anal retentive, not NUTS!!!
;-)

So are we all!

Damm shame too, would be nice to buy a "magic" primer or sizing die.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

I have annealed rifle brass for many years with excellant results - I use a hand held propane torch and water quench. I know that there are machines on the market for doing this and many of those that shoot long range competition with black powder use these machines as they are extremely dependent on consistent neck tension. I don't require that degree of consistency and am happy with my method.

I would worry about getting too much heat into the head area of our shorter handgun brass and risking a serious gas leak and possible damage from this leak.

In my own observation with some 44 mag brass that I have fired over 40 times each, I have not seen a need for annealing.....

that is my two cents worth......!

Ward

Heat them with a propane torch, while standing up in a lasagna pan full water. Tip them over with the torch nozzle to quench.

Yup, had you pegged for a tech - right out of the gate.

Actually had to read it through a few times, but it would be a great little project for someone so inclined - which FORTUNATELY I'm not. ;-]

Stuff like that, has the potential to take all the fun out out of my weekly range trip.

That said, I'm impressed you came up w/ it. Results as structured, would definitively prove that brass, work hardened at a controlled rate, would have SOME effect on accuracy, and / or POI - as compared to new brass. I'd probably want to monitor the whole process w/ a chronograph though.

Only problem, is that to truly address my (rapidly getting beat down) theory of INCONSISTENTLY work hardened brass, we would need to start w/ two different loads (1 low pressure / 1 high pressure), & mix the brass.

We havin' fun yet? Tell ya', the whole "load 'em up / shoot 'em good as you are able / adjourn to a big plate of BBQ & cold beverage" thing, is starting to sound better & better...

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Regards - GCF

I had thought that your primary concern was with target loads.
With full power loads I think more factors need to be considered. For example; I have had full power (commercial) .44mag loads come out of the cylinder very, very hot, I suspect hot enough to air quench. I see heat discoloration.
So the question would be did they stay in the chamber long enough to slow cool below critical or did I air quench them?
Target loads are never that hot.

If you had a very hot 10mm load in a 1006 would it come hot enough to air quench? If so, you might see hardening.

I think you should do the experiment and report back, use target loads, the most accurate for your revolver.
Now to determine the most accurate load for your revolver I can suggest the following test:
First buy 5000 new brass cases, then you will need at least 5 different powders, 2# minimum each, same lot, for bullets I can suggest....................

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Ross -
Is that a factory No.1, or one of your customs? No matter I guess, as if it wasn't a shooter, you wouldn't still own it.

Tell ya' what, skip the whole process except for:

1. your basic worked up load (components of your choice)
2. weight sorting your brass to +/- 1.0 grain
3. basic trim to +/- 0.002"
4. dies of your choice

Bet you'd still be grouping 5/8" or better, & you'd still NEVER LOSE A GOAT!

Of course you wouldn't be having nearly as much fun squeezing out that extra 1/8" - which come to think about it, is pretty much the whole point for most of us.

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Regards - GCF

Good point & well received.

Pretty good crowd over here. Diplomatic too. Hard to believe that this thread is running almost 3 full pages, & aside from a couple of veiled inferences (not mentioning any names), no one has actually come out & asked me if I've had my eyes checked lately.

Absolutely amazing!

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Regards - GCF

Or..., did they get so dog gone hot, that they actually got annealed - after getting overworked by the pressure?? Mind boggling, huh?

One factor worth consideration here, is that the cartridge in question is .45 Colt. I load them for my 625-6 MG, that I am truly fond of - & have no intention of beating into an early retirement. Consequently, the highest pressure load that will ever intentionally come off my bench, will be equal to the pressure of a full house .45acp load.

Big difference between that, & your full house 10mm - or even your garden variety .357 & .44 magnums. That in mind, I suppose it would be fair to suggest that even IF straight wall pistol cases get hardened to any meaningful extent (jury is still out), it would least likely in a low pressure platform like a S&W625 / .45 Colt. Assuming of course, tight spec chambers.

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Regards - GCF

Seriously, what do do think about that BBQ?
;=]

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Regards - GCF

Three of us old duffers go to the nearest indoor range about ever week, unfortunately the nearest is about 40 miles. I of course go to do serious shooting, I think the other guys really want to go to a restaurant that we like not too far out of the way, but they humor me.
I think we should be serious, but not too serious about shooting, I don’t think I am going to make the Olympics anytime soon.

Personally I think it very unlikely that you are going to work harden cartridge brass in a 45 Colt, as you say indeed a low pressure operation.

I went to the book to look for the critical temperature for cartridge brass, 662degrees F. Recommended temp for annealing is approx.750 degrees, too much or too long and the neck will be too soft.

Interestingly BRASS WILL NOT TEMPERATURE HARDEN, I don’t care enough to dig out the reason, There goes my hot case theory.

Obviously the shorter the case the harder to anneal. You would have to anneal to bullet depth, doesn’t leave you too much room. Remember necks 750 base no more than 440, brass conducts heat rapidly.

My recommendation FWIW Have a couple of Lone Stars with that BBQ!!
Here (FL) they think you can BBQ pork.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

GCF: Naw it's just a ratty old non -prefix #1B in 6mm Remington from 1968. Of course that does meen it has a Douglas Match Grade barrel, 3 screw fully adjustable trigger and this one has pretty decent wood.

Ross

GCF;
I had a thought last night, if all you want to do is check your old brass, which is the brass you are using, it could be done with statistical significance in about 100 shots, say 50 each two different days. You would not need much prep work, a little sorting and some unfired brass, they would be loaded the way you normally load.
If there was no significance at 100 shots that would settle the issue in any case.
I have worked the details out in my head, so let me know.
Roger

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Conducted a little test today, w/ 30 pieces of 6X Starline, that were annealed & loaded up the other day. Not completely scientific, as I changed lube (hard Magna to LBT soft), & even focused a bit more intently on my front site.

Groups improved noticably, but again, due to my lack of proper laboratory procedure, I can't prove exactly why. I'll get some pics up, if I get a chance.

Personally, I think it's a bit of all three. I probably will anneal (lightly) the entire QTY #130 batch of brass, that is currently in use. I see no negatives at this point.

Lube characteristics & effect, are another "hot topic", but I think lubes like LBT Soft Blue & Speed Green (from The Bull Shop in AK) have an advantage in performace over the hard stuff.

May try again w/ the Magna lube & annealed brass, we'll just have to see.


Now that said, w/ regards to checking my old brass - I'd like to hear what you came up with, & am all ears... ;=]

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Regards - GCF

Between you, me, & the lamp post, I hear they got Cash for Clunkers up & running again. Be a perfect time to trade that poor ol' thang in, & get yer self into a "new & improved" model!

Hey, I'm just here to help!


In all seriousness though, sounds like a real sweetheart - I'm officially envious...

At some point, I'd be interested in getting your impartial take on the practical & downrange differences between the original Douglas No.1's, & the current hammer forged offerings.

My new 7x57 is surprisingly accurate, BUT by not finish lapping their new barrels - & bitterly clinging to standard SAAMI specs, I think Ruger sort of choked on the follow through. JMHO anyway...

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Regards - GCF

If you go to the Cast Boolits site you can start a really nasty fight by mentioning your favorite bullet lube and suggesting that it is proven superior.


For a test of your old brass;
First select a sample at random of your old brass, you will need about 100, if you use mixed brands, use only one brand in the sample. Do whatever gauging and inspection you would normally do, I would set aside cases that you would normally trim and not use them in the sample.
Second; You will need 100 new cases of the same brand.
Third: Use your favorite bullets but do a bit more inspection than usual, I would narrow down the weight differential. Same lube for all of course.
Forth: Take 50 old and 50 new cases, mix them so that you reload them at random,
Fifth: When reloading use same powder, primer batches, be careful with powder load consistency do not group them as you reload and after, mix them up.

You now have 100 loaded rounds mixed old and new brass, picked and loaded at random.

Separate old and new cased reloads into piles of 25 (four piles) A-B old A-B new, then into groups of five each old, 5 ea new, You will have 20 groups of five: A 1-10, B1-10, number the groups, record which groups are new, which old.

Take 5 gps of 5, old, 5 gps of 5, new to the range (all A is fine). Here is the firing order (random # generator) 7934 6125 4 8 0

You need to fire 5 shot groups each on an individual (marked) target, I suggest from the same chamber, and from bags, this will vastly reduce confounding variables.
Fifty in a day is enough, after you have the group of 10 targets; I suggest measurements of group size. Nothing wrong with eye balling the groups, but numbers are easier to handle.
If your thesis is correct you will not have to shoot the second group as a test. But the data will be stronger with a set shot on a different day.
The extra brass selected at the beginning is for potentially redoing the test.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Yeah, well some people have NO sense of humor, & zero tolerance for OTHER people's input.

PERSONALLY, I have found MY OWN knowledge base increases 50%, if I listen to the perspective of others - & then weed out the bull.

I'll study your obviously well thought out proposal, & get back to you w/ comment.

Thanks - Gary

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Regards - GCF

PERSONALLY, I have found MY OWN knowledge base increases 50%, if I listen to the perspective of others - & then weed out the bull.
In some cases I have found that weeding out the BS, ends up with my decreasing my own knowledge base.
It’s not what you know, it’s what you know that isn’t so........
I forgot to say why all of the BS. It’s possible to design and run multi-variant experiments but the usual result is to define the most likely variant and then “more experiments are needed”. Well it keeps them all employed.

Here what you are trying to do is as nearly as possible, given the interior ballistics problem, is have only one variable; Brass.
In general you load the same way as normal, randomizing loading variables by mixing brass. It should really take very little longer than usual.

Purely my speculation but crimp might be a variable, so in this experiment, I probably would use the lightest possible crimp.

If you want to find out if there is a chamber to chamber variation, you could load 30 rounds of new or nearly new brass and fire a group of 5 from each chamber. If there is a gross variation it should show up immediately. The best idea then would be to fire another set using only the best and worst chamber to confirm.
Some bullseye shooters of old used only their five best cylinders in matches.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

My brain is itching from this thread. Too much detail that I am ignoring and not paying attention to during my reloading / shooting process? Or, and my wife thinks I'm a perfectionist. I haven't even gotten started -- and probably won't.

With 25 gallons of reloadable (tumbled, empty) brass in 15 calibers (more 38 Spl than 7 mm Rem mag) why anneal brass -- go get another container. Lineless bifocals, arthritus, and a shaky hand do nothing for group size -- just go shoot for fun.

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S&WHF 366

Quote of the week!

Why worry about annealing? Well from my perspective, I'd like to stretch case life as far as possible. My rifle brass is positively tough to pull the expander button through, after the first couple of firings. Annealing helps in that regard, & as far as I'm concerned, promotes accuracy as the brass ages.

On top of that, it's an odd ball caliber (7x57), & ain't cheap - or always available.

I do not at this point, believe that annealing is as beneficial to handgun brass, as rifle brass - but I do think it is somewhat helpful. Just my opinion of course, & coming from a guy that has actually trimmed .45acp brass.

Gotta agree, that fun is a factor, but my enjoyment lies in assembling accurate ammo - & improving my personal skill level.

As the gentleman from Idaho (& several others) pointed out, the shooter is the weak link. Goes double for me, but with inconsistent ammo, how will I ever improve my own potential?

I want my hand loads for to be as accurate as possible - w/ out going COMPLETLY over the edge, chasing details. These ARE after all, factory hanguns, & yes, while aligning the sights, I too tend to shake like a dog passing a peach pit...
;-]

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Regards - GCF

As successful as he may have been over the course of his working career, I am of the opinion that the gentleman from Idaho, MAY have missed his true calling...

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Regards - GCF

I am always comforted when someone says that, I have the Army Advanced Pistol Marksman Manuals and from time to time I flip to a very dogeared page where it says no one can hold on target without shaking more than a few seconds. I am still working on getting it up to a second without shaking.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Ya' just gots ta' be QUICK, I guess...

As promised, a few "group" pics. Note that the first pic is a different bullet & lube. Brass is nearly new. All groups shown were fired off bags - at just under 20 yards.


Nice group, shot w/ a different bullet shortly after buying this revolver. Shown here to demo that this gun IS capable of good accuracy. Same primers, & same lot of brass still in use.




Current use bullet, shot a while back.



Shot w/ 6X brass & hard Magna Blue lube, before annealing.






Shot w/ 6X brass & LBT Soft Blue lube after annealing.

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Regards - GCF

Ya' just gots ta' be QUICK, I guess...

As promised, a few "group" pics. Note that the first pic is a different bullet & lube. Brass is nearly new. All groups shown were fired off bags - at just under 20 yards.


Nice group, shot w/ a different bullet shortly after buying this revolver. Shown here to demo that this gun IS capable of good accuracy. Same primers, & same lot of brass still in use.




Current use bullet, shot a while back. Note WW brass (2X I think), & 12 rounds.



Note powder change (next 4 groups) to VV N-340. Trying to get a reasonable bit more out of it, for possible field use. Shot w/ 6X brass & hard Magna Blue lube, before annealing. No joy in Mudville...






Shot w/ 6X brass & LBT Soft Blue lube after annealing. Those are 12 & 6 round groups, respectively. Something made a difference...

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Regards - GCF

One thing I didn't see mentioned in determining the degrading of your accuracy, was measuring the consistency of the OAL. A few years ago I had been loading a batch of .45 ACP's and noticed the groups opening up. As I tried to determine if it was me or the gun, I noticed the recently made ammo next to some I had loaded previously, (all cast 200 gr SWC's), and the OAL looked different. I measured and sure enough it was. I looked at my seating die, and found a build up of bullet lube, causing the OAL to get less and less, building up the pressure as the internal space got less.

I now inspect my loading die every time I reload, and clean as needed.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Good observation & practice to get into.

These Keith style revolver bullets, & have distinct crimp grooves, as opposed to the SWC style - as typically used w/ auto pistols. Although not mentioned, crimp die setting & OAL is consistent.

Of course bear in mind that the degree of crimp tension, is a factor that could be affected by work hardening of the brass - which goes back to my original question, as to the actual value of annealing handgun brass...

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Regards - GCF

GCF;
One serious problem that is hard to design out is that the shooter knows the changes he has made when he shoots unless for example the new/old brass can be hidden from the shooter.. .
To what degree does that influence the results? If it only results in superior relaxation and concentration, it could be significant.
Of course this is where a Ransom Rest would be good.
Roger.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Yeah, pretty hard to minimize that pesky human factor. But I guess THAT is the decipline...

You know, I really enjoy shooting groups, but have little desire to own a Ransom Rest. I mean, if you take the "cowboy" out of handgun shooting, how much fun could really be left?

I suspect that age is "beginning" to be an issue for most of us on this forum. Hand loading (& shooting groups) seems to be a game for old guys - as the young guys seem to stay busy w/ "other" pursuits. Kind of ironic, as it's those young fellas that have the really good eyes & reflexes.

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Regards - GCF

Well I am not going to join the run and gun guys either.
If we all lived closer together we could have a range/hobby shop. I have no reason to own a Ransom Rest, but once in a while I might shoot a few groups on one if I had the use of it.

I have little or no place to use a chronograph, but equally would like to check a few rounds, then of course if I had access to a 10mm pressure barrel I could settle a 200gr pb bullet question which bothers me.
Otherwise it’s groups for me too.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus