Question: is ".38-44 S&W" and ".38-44 S&W Gallery" the same cartridge with slightly different way of describing or are the two actually different?

The cartridges are different. The .38-44 was intended for outdoor target use. It has a 120 grain round nose bullet with 20 grains of powder. The .34-44 Gallery cartridge has a 70 grain round ball with 5 1/2 grains of powder for indoor "gallery" shooting. The gallery boxes were loaded by UMC and Winchester in boxes marked "Gallery." The .34-44 was originally made to the order of Ira Paine in 1886, with which he set numerous target shooting records. Ed.

They are very different cartridges. The .38-44 S&W target( I think that is what you are referring to as Gallery) is a low power black powder cartridge with the bullet seated entirely inside the brass case. The .38-44 S&W cartridge is a heavy duty smokeless round for the .38-44 heavy duty hand ejector revolver.

So there is a .38-44 Gallery cartridge. Now I have another cartridge to find for my cartridge collection.

And I'm correct, am I not, in my belief that both rounds have the bullet seated entirely within the cartridge case?

Ralph Tremaine

And while we're at it, are there also two different loads for the 32-44-----and, if so, do both rounds also have the bullet seated entirely within the case?

Is there also a 32-20 Gallery?
I have a cased mod 3 Target that includes cases marked 32-20 WIN R-P and small (32 cal) lead balls.

__________________
Petter
S&WCA 1759

I think it more likely that a previous owner die formed .32-20 into .32-44 Target.
There aren't a lot of close relatives of the No 3 Target cartridges and that was likely the best a shooter could do.

alanfir, The .38-44 Target is a separate cartridge from the .38-44 Gallery. They are two different cartridges, designed in the 1880s.. The 38/44 cartridge designed for the S&W Heavy Duty is a much later cartridge designed in the 1930s for a different S&W revolver.
Schof45, There is a .32-44 Gallery cartridge, but no 32-20 Gallery ( .32 WCF ) . It was designed shortly after the .38-44 became a favorite cartridge of Ira Paine, and Paine's rival, F.E..Bennett asked for a .32-44 to be built by S&W. The .32-44 has an 85 grain round nose lead bullet and 10 grains of black powder. All these .38-44 Target, .38-44 Gallery, .32-44 Target and .32-44 Gallery cartridges have their bullets seated below the case mouth. There is also a .38 S&W Gallery load, but no .38 S&W Target round.
Ed.

Gents, I have also been looking for info on the .38-44 myself for a while. Does anyone know the exact bullet shape (assuming some kind of wadcutter), number of grease grooves, and the exact diameter used. Would be fun to recreate and do some testing.
KK

Ed, we were replying at the same time and I hadn't seen your post as I was posting mine. I missed the fact that the thread was about two different cartridges for the New Model Three Target. Thanks for sharing your vast knowledge in this forum. Alanfir.

The UMC and Winchester Ammo. catalogs for the 1890s list the various components of the rounds discussed above, but nothing about the bullet's specifications except the weight in grains and the label " round nose lead" . If you look down the case mouth of a specimen you can see they are round nose bullets, not wad cutters, for the target rounds. The inside case mouth measurement for .38-44 UMC cases is .357 in. Winchester cases measure .359 in. You can reload examples using lead bullets of correct diameter to fit inside the cases. Ed.

Ed, Roy lettered my two new model #3 targets as being "38-44 S&W Gallery" I have an early edition of Supica's book, but I don't find much on the subject. Were all New Model #3 target models' chambered in the 38-44 S&W Gallery?

Good question! I have examples of only the outdoor 38-44 target load. The cartridge case is the same length as the cylinder. I have never seen a 38-44 Gallery load, but presume the same cartridge case is used. On the other hand, I have examples of only the 32-44 Gallery load, and have never seen an example of the outdoor cartridge case. The 32-44 Gallery load cartridge case is shorter than the cylinder. Again, I presume the same case is used for the outdoor cartridge.

If that's the case, it seems rather odd they would use a cylinder length case for the 38-44, but not for the 32-44----given that superior accuracy would almost certainly be achieved with the longer (cylinder length) case.

Ralph Tremaine

Cotton42, Jay, I'm a little puzzled by Roy lettering your two NM#3 Targets as being " .38-44 Gallery." Could be that's what the shipping clerk wrote down on the shipping ledger, however the guns are really just .38-44 Target Models, and will shoot either .38-44 Target round for outdoor shooting, or .38-44 Gallery round for indoor practice. I think I'll ask Roy for further explanation in the "Ask Roy" category of this Forum. Ed.

Here are a couple quick shots of both cartridges. Both appear to be conical bullets. The .38 bullet is seated below flush, while the .32 is protruding about 1/16 inch. I also have a .32-44 with the projectile missing, and what is in the case looks like it would have had a round ball that would have been about 3/16 below the case mouth. I have seen .32-44s made out of .32-20 brass that was shortened and opened up for the bullet.

Ken

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Excellent--------my memory still works!!

I've been looking high and low for my 32-44 gallery loads---no joy! And just as soon as I typed that, I thought of a place I hadn't looked----and there they were----and they're outdoor target loads as you show in your pictures, not gallery.

So, my memory still (sort of) works!

Ralph Tremaine

Thanks Ed. That makes sense.

Jay, Roy answered my query in the "Ask Roy" part of this Forum. He says the factory called the cartridge, the ".38-44 Gallery." I assume that's why he called your two guns ".38-44 Gallery" guns. I note in the Neal & Jinks book " Smith & Wesson 1857-1945" there are numerous descriptions of the .32-44 and the .38-44 NM#3s and they are all called the Target Model. No mention of the word "Gallery" anywhere. Likewise in Roy's book " History of Smith & Wesson" So I guess we learned something new today! Ed.

Well---SHOOT!!! All my letters call the 32-44 and 38-44 "Gallery" models "Target". I guess I'll have to send them back and get them corrected. Probably wouldn't work though----they're pretty old-----more than likely out of warranty by now.

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph, Don't feel bad! All the letters I have, or have seen, and copied for my files, for the .32-44 and the .38-44 S&W NM#3s, call the guns Target Models. No mention of "Gallery". Apparently Roy has uncovered new info. from the S&W records (?) and can now letter these guns as "Gallery" models. I'm not sure which records he has found, perhaps he will elaborate, as I'm still curious. I have dug out from my files, my friend the late Chuck Suydam's notes on the .38-44 rounds and he shows the average dimensions of the .38-44 Target round to be 1.460 to 1.480 in. for the case length, .363 to .375 in. diameter, and .435 in. rim dia. The Gallery round is .960 to 1.025 in for the case length., .346 in. did., and .410 rim dia. The Gallery round was soon dropped, as it caused excessive fouling. Target bullet was 146 gr., two groove, round nose lead. Ira Paine designed this new cartridge and on Dec. 9, 1886, fired a 100 round aggregate of 878 at Walnut Hill's 50 yd. range. later, F.E.Bennet induced S&W to make a .32-44 Target NM#3 revolver, using the Paine extended case. This .32 (0.321 in.) had a round nose lead bullet, single groove, 85 gr., 10 gr. of black powder and a case length of 0.975 in. for the Target round. A Gallery round had 50 gr. bullet and 5 gr. of powder. Neither Paine or Bennett reached scores with these calibers that approached their scores with the .44 Russian cartridge, so production of these revolvers by S&W was limited. Ed.

Ed.

I don't feel bad---just somewhat amused---in a sad sort of way----if such a combination of emotions is possible. I guess another way to put it is I didn't/don't know whether to laugh or cry! So much for that!!

But now you have me totally bumfuzzled! You say Bennet induced S&W to make a .32-44 Target NM#3---using the Paine extended case. I guess I don't know what "extended case" means. I thought/think it means the case is the same length as the cylinder----which is wicked smart and pays dividends when the scores are tallied. Then again, "extended case" could perhaps mean the bullet is seated (completely (+/-) inside the case---------which is the case with both target rounds. BUT----------the .32-44 case IS NOT the same length as the cylinder. It occurs to me it may have been the same length as the cylinder----once upon a time----and then it was changed. And all this blather is based on my knowledge of the .32-44 cartridge which is furnished by the (whole) two rounds I have----which not incidentally measure .975", as you stated.

The next thing that has me bumfuzzled is the 290 .32-44, and 390 .38-44 revolvers you say were produced. You must be talking about something I know absolutely nothing about----and there are more than a few things I know absolutely nothing about; but my recollection of the total production (both calibers) of NM#3 Targets is in the 4,000 neighborhood. So what are you talking about?

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph, My apologies! I can see you're bumfuzzled!. The info. I posted above about the .38-44 and the .32-44 are from Chuck Suydam's notes, circa 1970s. His use of the term "extended case" is referring to the fact that the cases for the two rounds are extended .38 S&W cases. His data for the number of guns produced is, as we now know, incorrect. I will edit the post to delete that. Thanks, Ed.