Top Break Advise

Hello all:

I have just recently been enamored with the old "top break" type of revolvers. I was wondering if some of you really knowledgeable people could help me?

1. What to look for?
2. What brand to consider (just like I did not know what you would recommend? ).
3. What goods to consider?
4. What bads to consider?
5. Any other information needs to be considered?
6. What not to look for?

There seems to be a lot of H & Rs out there but they are all to pieces.

Any information given will be helpful. I don't mind buying a weapon that is worn but I really do not want to buy a "dog" that will not be worth my time and effort. I would like to have a decent shooter.

Feedback and responses greatly appreciated.

My two cents worth!

Start off with buying as many books as you can afford that are about top break revolvers, or contain info. about same. Books on Iver Johnsons, Marlins, S&Ws, Hopkins & Allen, H&Rs, etc. plus a copy of Flayderman's Guide to Antique Firearms. Read them and become knowledgeable about top breaks, so that when you go to gun shows, auctions, gun stores, etc. you can tell the difference between top breaks that look similar, but really are not. Watch current auctions and get a feel for prices paid, etc. Top break guns are plentiful and only top quality will bring high prices, however you can enjoy collecting many nice guns for little money if you are willing to take it slowly and buy only what you can afford and can learn from. Ed.

S & W Models?

opoefc said:

Start off with buying as many books as you can afford that are about top break revolvers, or contain info. about same. Books on Iver Johnsons, Marlins, S&Ws, Hopkins & Allen, H&Rs, etc. plus a copy of Flayderman's Guide to Antique Firearms. Read them and become knowledgeable about top breaks, so that when you go to gun shows, auctions, gun stores, etc. you can tell the difference between top breaks that look similar, but really are not. Watch current auctions and get a feel for prices paid, etc. Top break guns are plentiful and only top quality will bring high prices, however you can enjoy collecting many nice guns for little money if you are willing to take it slowly and buy only what you can afford and can learn from. Ed.

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Thanks,

Are there any S & W Models to consider?

Please advise.

rd

An important decision to make is what caliber you want? I have had and shot most all top-breaks and find a couple I really like. The New Model 3 Single Action in 44 Russian is hard to top when it comes to quality and accuracy. The New Model 3 Double Action is another large frame S&W that was manufactured in 44 Russian and 44-40. Both are a great revolvers to shoot and the revolver is a great shooter. If you are looking for something that you can shoot, either caliber would fit the bill. Another S&W top-break to consider would be the 38 Double Action, which is probably one of the lowest priced shooter out there. They take 38 S&W ammo and most you find will function just fine.

Others made by S&W are 32 SA, 32 DA, 32 Safety Hammerless, 38 Single Action spur trigger, 38 Safety Hammerless, and 38 Prefected.

Personally, I would consider the quality of S&W above all other top-breaks out there.

Gary,

I would enjoy hearing your thoughts/opinion on blackpowder vs smokeless cartridges in these old top break revolvers? I too am just starting to get interested in these old revolvers and have seen a wide variety of opinions on this matter. Thanks.

If you want to shoot smokeless powder in a top-break revolver, the most practical choice is probably a MK IV Webley in .38 S&W caliber.

Alas, most seen here were made in WW II and have some rough finish issues. Webley marked these with a War Finish stamp. Dull blue jobs and some tool marks. But they're good shooters. You can find some with nice commercial finishes.

And the Webley stirrup lock system on them is quite a bit stronger than on other top-break guns.

Their older .455's if found in the original caliber are good. Most were conveted to .45 ACP, which operates at about PROOF pressures for .455's. Ammo is hard to find. But you can locate ammo for the .38 version much easier, so I suggested it.

acco40 said:

Gary,

I would enjoy hearing your thoughts/opinion on blackpowder vs smokeless cartridges in these old top break revolvers? I too am just starting to get interested in these old revolvers and have seen a wide variety of opinions on this matter. Thanks.

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If you search this Forum, you will find many threads discussing this topic and all have wide ranging opinions. Your answer partially needs to include caliber in discussing top-break revolvers. I have done quite a bit of reloading with smokeless and am comfortable that I have come up with low pressure loads that are safe to use in a top-break revolver, but others here will state never shoot smokeless in any gun made in the BP days and that is OK.

You can develop low pressure loads for large caliber S&Ws and purchase factory ammo for the small calibers today, all in smokeless. 32 S&W and 38 S&W calibers are factory loaded to offer low pressure loads for the old top-breaks, but there are some large caliber factory loads out there that are just too hot for my liking, so reolading is the only option to assure low pressures.

You should not plan on doing a lot of shooting with any old top-break S&W since they can break with BP of smokeless and parts are a real pain to find if not impossible. The occasional couple of cylinders full should not pose a problem, but broken parts are always a possibility. Personally, I have a Uberti Schofield in 45 Colt that I shoot lots without concerns. There are several reproductions out there that will give you the same experience shooting.

Thank You

Thank you Texas Star and glowe for you advise and comments. They are very much appreciated.

acco40 said:

Gary,

I would enjoy hearing your thoughts/opinion on blackpowder vs smokeless cartridges in these old top break revolvers? I too am just starting to get interested in these old revolvers and have seen a wide variety of opinions on this matter. Thanks.

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Historical fact: The old black powder revolver cartridges have been factory-loaded using smokeless powder ever since at least 1896, and by the early 1900s, most everyone had switched to using smokeless loads, even though black power loadings continued to be available for another 20-30 years. Therefore, most of the old top break revolvers have been shot using nothing but smokeless loads for most of their lives. Smokeless powder is perfectly safe to use in top break revolvers so long as light loads (simulating the old black powder load ballistics) are used. Had that not been true, the ammunition manufacturers would have never switched to smokeless powder in those calibers. I have never been able to understand why there are still some who mistakenly believe otherwise, and spout nonsense about "dangerous pressure spikes," etc. with smokeless loads. About the only exceptions I would make would involve the early S&W tip-up revolvers, which actually should not be fired at all with any ammunition.

The .32 and .38 Safety Hammerless and Double Action models were made in the largest quantities and are the easiest to find today. As Ed mentioned above, research and education are the keys to happy collecting.

It is challenging to find these in 90% condition or higher, and even more so to find them without pitted bores and chambers; sometimes even externally pristine examples have internal pitting or finish loss at the cylinder face or rear barrel, not surprising from the era of black powder, corrosive primers or both. Happy hunting!

If you want a top break S&W for shooting or personal protection, I would recommend either a .38 hammerless of the second variation or later, or a .38 Perfected model. I have had no problem finding either model in 90% or better condition and with perfect bores and chambers. The advantage of the Perfected model is in availability of internal parts should something break. The Perfected uses the same internals as the I frame hand ejectors of the same period.

The S&W top breaks are heads above all other American top breaks from the same period. and the most affordable of these will be the smaller 32 and 38 caliber guns. The older, larger frame, big bore guns are going to cost you a lot more.
DA and hammerless "lemon squeezer" revolvers are fairly easy to find in good shooting condition and can be had for less than $250. As Tom noted, the Perfected is also a good model to have but is harder to find.

As far as the other makers are concerned, Iver Johnson and H&R are the better picks. A good rule of thumb when looking for a shooter is to get one that does not have the free spinning cylinder. I know for certain the the early IJ top breaks all had this type cylinder which only locked up when the trigger was pulled back. It wasn't until 1909 or so that IJ incorporated the cylinder lock slot, as seen on all the S&W top breaks. It was also at this time that IJ specifically built their revolvers for use with the then new smokeless powders. H&R revolvers seem to follow the same pattern: older models have the free spinning cylinders, newer have the rectangular slot for the lock. I have bought newer shooter grade IJs and H&Rs for as little as $50. The older "free wheeling" models are better suited for decorating.



The superior quality of S&Ws design and construction has enabled them to weather the passing of time better than the competition. Then as now, you got what you paid for.
Go with a Smith.

John

Nice shadow box, John! I have a couple of S&W top breaks, a .38 DA and a .38 Lemon Squeezer (safety hammerless). I would second the suggestion to use .38 S&W because the old .32s were short cartridges which are hard to find. The .38's also have a larger frame which makes gripping the handle more comfortable. .38 S&W was harder to find a year or so ago but now can be found regularly in big box stores like Gander Mountain, Academy Sports and Cabela's. Of course, if you reload, you can get your per cartridge costs below $0.10/round, especially if you cast your own bullets.

DWalt said:

Historical fact: The old black powder revolver cartridges have been factory-loaded using smokeless powder ever since at least 1896, and by the early 1900s, most everyone had switched to using smokeless loads, even though black power loadings continued to be available for another 20-30 years. Therefore, most of the old top break revolvers have been shot using nothing but smokeless loads for most of their lives. Smokeless powder is perfectly safe to use in top break revolvers so long as light loads (simulating the old black powder load ballistics) are used. Had that not been true, the ammunition manufacturers would have never switched to smokeless powder in those calibers. I have never been able to understand why there are still some who mistakenly believe otherwise, and spout nonsense about "dangerous pressure spikes," etc. with smokeless loads. About the only exceptions I would make would involve the early S&W tip-up revolvers, which actually should not be fired at all with any ammunition.

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That is by far the most rationale statement for the use of smokeless powders in theses old break tops that I have read. Thanks!

Yes, in addition, around 1909 S&W published a statement that factory manufactured smokeless cartridges were safe to shoot in their topbreak guns. IIRC, they went on to state they would warranty their guns even if shot with smokeless rounds.

I'll make a suggestion. The later .38 H&R "Defender" top break revolvers in .38 S&W are well-made and durable. There have been numerous variations of this revolver made from the 1930s up until 1984, and all are good for shooting purposes. I have owned a Model 925 Defender (4" barrel) for about 12 years, and have fired it at least several thousand rounds during that time (all reloads), and it still looks like new. It's one of my favorites. That model was made from 1964-84, and came in both 4" and 2.5" barrel lengths. Most will be found with the shorter barrel. It has fully adjustable sights and shoots very accurately. In fact mine will shoot groups at 15 yards as good or better than my S&W Model 14. You don't run across these very often, but if you do happen to find one at a reasonable price, grab it. You won't be sorry.

DWalt said:

I'll make a suggestion. The later .38 H&R "Defender" top break revolvers in .38 S&W are well-made and durable. There have been numerous variations of this revolver made from the 1930s up until 1984, and all are good for shooting purposes. You don't run across these very often, but if you do happen to find one at a reasonable price, grab it. You won't be sorry.

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DeWalt - that is certainly an interesting revolver, but I have to say it is one of the ugliest guns I have seen in a long time. I do not doubt that it is very accurate, but I would have to go to the range when nobody else is there to bring that one out of the case to shoot!

I totaly agree with you on shooting smokeless, but there are high velocity factory loads out there today that must not be shot in an old top-break. I have seen imported 38 S&W factory loads over 1000 fps and some heavy 44 Russian and 44-40 factory loadings as well. Best to never go above original BP velocities when shopping for factory ammo and find the slowest available that will still provide accuracy is the best option.

Much of the strangeness of appearance has to do with the "birds-head" brown plastic grips. I've never found any nicer grips to fit it or I would have bought a pair. The earlier Defenders had grips of more conventional appearance, but they are not interchangeable with the 925 grips.

Even though the grips are a bit odd, they are ergonomic and fit my hand well. The 925 is also good in that it is fairly lightweight, and you can slip it into your waistband without a holster, and it always stays in place. The grip sort of hooks over your belt and it won't slide down. I don't know if that was a design feature or not.

I've never been the least bit self-conscious about the appearance of any of my guns, and I have some that are far stranger looking than the H&R.

Maybe 10-15 years ago, there was a fairly lengthy article in Gun Digest about the H&R Defender line, especially about their use during WWII. There's a lot of interesting history given there.

Howdy

I am one of those who 'spouts nonsense about "dangerous pressure spikes," etc. with smokeless loads', but at least I don't make derogatory statements about those who disagree with me.

Colt did not factory warranty the Single Action Army for Smokeless Powder until 1900. S&W did not get around to it until about 1909. My rule of thumb is, if it was made before 1900, I do not shoot Smokeless Powder in it. Period. I only shoot my Russian, New Model #3, two Double Action 44s, and Schofield with Black Powder because they were made in the 1870s and 1880s, when steel (and iron, my Schofield has an iron frame) was not as strong as it was a few decades later.

Part of the problem here is that folks think cleaning up after shooting Black Powder is difficult. It is not, in fact cleaning up after shooting Black Powder is easier than cleaning up after Smokeless. It is just messier. Also, Black Powder is not as corrosive as most shooters think. Back when corrosive primers were being used, it was a different story. Today we do not use corrosive primers, and Black Powder fouling by itself is less corrosive than most believe.

So what does the warranty situation mean? Absolutely nothing. And the "Pressure Spike ?" It is absolute nonsense. Why don't you prove it exists? If you love black powder so much, then that's your privelege to use.