Springfield Arms S&W Revolver

GRI · Aug 3, 2019

I recently picked up this Springfield Arms pistol. The pistol was made in 1863 in Sprigfield, MA and is in excellent condition. The mechanics are perfect, the silver plate on the frame is 33% still there, the bluing is dark but still there on the cylinder and the barrel is 90% bright blue. Most sources state that a total of 6,000 were made with the last 1,513 going to Smith and Wesson. They were a violation of the Rollin-White patent and Smith and Wesson stopped their production. Of those that went to Smith and Wesson most have the Smith and Wesson patent added to the cylinder. This one does not, but by serial, 4734, fits well within the serial range. The pistol has a solid frame with a loading gate and is a far better design then the tip up Smith and Wesson. They were a finely made pistol in .30 Rimfire that must have been very popular during the war for those who could get one. The guns are scarce and a search of the Internet revealed only two guns sold, one of which, serial 5142, sold by Greg Martin in 2003 for $1,800+ with a buyers premium.

first-model · Aug 3, 2019

Yes, the Springfield Arms was a finely made gun. I have one bearing a 59XX serial number, and the barrel is roll marked "PAT APR 3 1855 MANUFACTURED FOR SMITH & WESSON."

A four figure price for one of these guns seems very aspirational to me. I paid about $300 for mine about two years ago, and the research that I did then suggested that this was par for the course. For $1,800 the gun would need to be in extraordinary condition.

Mike

GRI · Aug 3, 2019

first-model said:
Yes, the Springfield Arms was a finely made gun. I have one bearing a 59XX serial number, and the barrel is roll marked "PAT APR 3 1855 MANUFACTURED FOR SMITH & WESSON."

A four figure price for one of these guns seems very aspirational to me. I paid about $300 for mine about two years ago, and the research that I did then suggested that this was par for the course. For $1,800 the gun would need to be in extraordinary condition.

Mike

The gun was not minty. I would guess in your research you missed Greg Martin's auction result that has been on the web since 2003. I suspect that you used "Flayderman's Guide" which would give you a $300 price, but the guide never had accurate pricing and did not improve after his death in 2013. To be sure, I am not saying the gun is worth $1,800, but that they are desirable to early Smith and Wesson collectors and they are scarce. I know of 6, two on blogs, 2 that sold on the Internet, yours and mine. Perhaps others will let us know about theirs.

mmaher94087 · Aug 3, 2019

Mine is a .22 but I didn't pay near $1800.

opoefc · Aug 4, 2019

I had a couple of these Springfield infringements in the past when I had a large collection of S&W copies , etc. I probably didn't pay more that $100 for it, however that was 60+ yrs ago. Ed.

mrchuck · Aug 4, 2019

I'm not into antique Springfield pistols, but I do "own and shoot" a modern 45 auto pistol made by Springfield.
It works just fine, and lives in a bedside drawer "awaiting" use.

GRI · Aug 4, 2019

Oops, I have egg on my face. I guess I was excited to get the pistol, it does have the Smith and Wesson logo on the cylinder.

model3sw · Aug 4, 2019

My inventory shows I have a 30 cal, 5-shot Springfield Revolver SN: 4691. I haven't had it out in decades. If it is relevant to this topic, I'll dig it out for a few photos. My notes indicate (corrected to Fine condition) and is in excellent mechanical condition.

Brass frame, blue 3+3/16" barrel. I also noted (not sure where I referenced but likely Flayderman's) and that it was made only in 1863, right under the nose of S&W.

Like Ed (opoefc) I once collected any and all Rollin White patent infringement and copies by any "decent quality" manufacturer (including those manufactured by Rollin White, himself). No Swamp Angel types nor junk foreign copies.

Ed, glad to see you back on the board, Dad. You didn't tell the whole truth ... that that $100 you paid for your Springfield revolver (back when) was likely in the currency "de jour", that being either in gold doubloons, U.S. Double Eagles, U.S. silver coin or Gold Certificate bills. Don't you wish you had that currency you paid for it back instead of the gun ?

First-model and Mike Maher ... what do you know of such (30 cal). I note the 30 caliber is the scarcer version. Exactly HOW scarce, I never researched.

Sal Raimondi,
Florida State License Auction House.

first-model · Aug 4, 2019

GRI said:
The gun was not minty. I would guess in your research you missed Greg Martin's auction result that has been on the web since 2003. I suspect that you used "Flayderman's Guide" which would give you a $300 price, but the guide never had accurate pricing and did not improve after his death in 2013. To be sure, I am not saying the gun is worth $1,800, but that they are desirable to early Smith and Wesson collectors and they are scarce. I know of 6, two on blogs, 2 that sold on the Internet, yours and mine. Perhaps others will let us know about theirs.

I wasn't aware of Greg Martin's auction from 2003. I did not, however, base that estimate on Flayderman's guide (in fact, I have no idea what price Flayderman cites for these guns). I'm simply going off of the mental rolodex I keep of guns I see at the antique gun shows. Which, to be fair, is anecdotal, but more representative of actual selling prices than any guide book.

I guess I'd call myself an early Smith & Wesson collector ... I have over 30 Model 1's and almost as many Rollin White patent infringements and evasions.

Mike

model3sw · Aug 4, 2019

first-model said:
I guess I'd call myself an early Smith & Wesson collector ... I have over 30 Model 1's and almost as many Rollin White patent infringements and evasions.

Mike

When you want about another 30 or 40 early "smalls" (all in higher conditions) and Rollin White patent infringements and evasions ... contact me. Not joking. Sal Raimondi

model3sw · Aug 4, 2019

1863 Springfield S&W Revolver Clone / Rollin White Patent

GRI said:
.

I suggest you edit the title of the thread so it will stay here in antique S&W Revolvers rather than get kicked into a different thread filing, like "others".

PS: it's a revolver, not a pistol. (constructive criticism).

GRI · Aug 5, 2019

first-model said:
I wasn't aware of Greg Martin's auction from 2003. I did not, however, base that estimate on Flayderman's guide (in fact, I have no idea what price Flayderman cites for these guns). I'm simply going off of the mental rolodex I keep of guns I see at the antique gun shows. Which, to be fair, is anecdotal, but more representative of actual selling prices than any guide book.

I guess I'd call myself an early Smith & Wesson collector ... I have over 30 Model 1's and almost as many Rollin White patent infringements and evasions.

Mike

To be fair, I probably was a little defensive. It seems that posting anything today draws criticism. While I have a fair amount of Smith’s, I really don’t do many early smalls. Really wanted to get a handle on the Springfield and hoped for input on them.

GRI · Aug 5, 2019

model3sw said:
I suggest you edit the title of the thread so it will stay here in antique S&W Revolvers rather than get kicked into a different thread filing, like "others".

PS: it's a revolver, not a pistol. (constructive criticism).

You’re right, will change it.

first-model · Aug 5, 2019

GRI said:
To be fair, I probably was a little defensive. It seems that posting anything today draws criticism. While I have a fair amount of Smith’s, I really don’t do many early smalls. Really wanted to get a handle on the Springfield and hoped for input on them.

I keep a pretty extensive archive of information about period (1850's and 1860's) gun manufacturers -- especially those from the Connecticut Valley, and especially those competing directly with Smith & Wesson's Model 1.

I was surprised to see how little I have about the Springfield Arms Company in general -- a few brief mentions in period newspapers, and a smattering of details from other books and such (but at that point it's third hand information to me, so I put much less stock in that). In a nutshell, here's what I have from primary sources I've researched myself:

The Springfield Arms Company was founded in 1851 some months after James Warner was issued Patent 7,894, "Improved Means for Revolving the Breeches of Repeating Fire-Arms." Warner initially claimed that he was making 26 pistols per day in his factory.

The company appeared to remain viable throughout the 1850's and early 1860's. The last concrete mention of the company that I have was in 1864, when a shipment of their arms to Mexico was held up in a New York customs house.

I don't know what came of the company. More digging would probably yield more information, but it's down a bit on my list of topics to research ... so that's what I have, and I'd love to hear more!

I suspect this lack of good scholarship is what has caused prices to be relatively stagnant -- at least, based on what I've seen in the buying and selling. I can't explain the $1,800 auction price, other than to say that two people clearly wanted that gun and bid it up. As I said before, the few I've seen change hands generally fell in the ~$300 range.

Of course, the motherlode of scholarship may be out there hiding under my nose ... as I suspect is the case with most collectors, I'm interested in this company mostly because of the connection to the Rollin White patent and Smith & Wesson. But after reviewing my sparse notes, I'm thinking that this company might deserve some more attention after all.

Mike

GRI · Aug 5, 2019

first-model said:
I keep a pretty extensive archive of information about period (1850's and 1860's) gun manufacturers -- especially those from the Connecticut Valley, and especially those competing directly with Smith & Wesson's Model 1.

I was surprised to see how little I have about the Springfield Arms Company in general -- a few brief mentions in period newspapers, and a smattering of details from other books and such (but at that point it's third hand information to me, so I put much less stock in that). In a nutshell, here's what I have from primary sources I've researched myself:

The Springfield Arms Company was founded in 1851 some months after James Warner was issued Patent 7,894, "Improved Means for Revolving the Breeches of Repeating Fire-Arms." Warner initially claimed that he was making 26 pistols per day in his factory.

The company appeared to remain viable throughout the 1850's and early 1860's. The last concrete mention of the company that I have was in 1864, when a shipment of their arms to Mexico was held up in a New York customs house.

I don't know what came of the company. More digging would probably yield more information, but it's down a bit on my list of topics to research ... so that's what I have, and I'd love to hear more!

I suspect this lack of good scholarship is what has caused prices to be relatively stagnant -- at least, based on what I've seen in the buying and selling. I can't explain the $1,800 auction price, other than to say that two people clearly wanted that gun and bid it up. As I said before, the few I've seen change hands generally fell in the ~$300 range.

Of course, the motherlode of scholarship may be out there hiding under my nose ... as I suspect is the case with most collectors, I'm interested in this company mostly because of the connection to the Rollin White patent and Smith & Wesson. But after reviewing my sparse notes, I'm thinking that this company might deserve some more attention after all.

Mike

Thanks Mike! I think what is telling is the marketing of their arms to Mexico. From what I see there are very few of these arms around, most marked with the S&W logo. Though there was a war on here with a high demand, sending them south of the border may have been a way around the patent infringement. If the majority went south, the guns are scarcer than we think.

model3sw · Aug 5, 2019

Not too shabby SAM 30 1863 Revolver SN: 4691

Had been cleaned in the past (not by me). Traces of silver plate remain. On the opposite side the side plate has more silver than the rest of it.

Notice loading gate, loading gate retention arm (swivel arm) and gears are intact. Also, roll stamp on cylinder, clear and legible. Gear on cylinder is intact with no damage. Cylinder scroll: "Manufactured for Smith & Wesson"

Usually, these features and the cylinder rod are often found bugger-ed on these revolvers.

Sal Raimondi

model3sw · Aug 5, 2019

A few more pix: SAM 30 1863 Revolver SN: 4691

Not as clean as I would have liked to have it, but it's a tough one to find ... especially when you're looking for one.

PS: a few others I went bonkers looking for were the Manhattan Firearms, National Firearms, and Brooklyn Firearms (Slocum). Being born in NYC (Brooklyn) but now a Floridian since 1985, I sought out the NYC Manufactured revolvers in the best condition I could find.

The Mahattan, National and Brooklyn Slocum are all in fantastic condition. I think the Brooklyn Arms, Slocum, was the epitome of the finest of the Rollin White patent evasions. A quality, precise, engineering masterpiece and a quality manufactured revolver. It is just a PAIN to load with those sliding sleeves and side-pin ( aka teat fire) ammo. Usually the Brooklyn / Slocum revolvers are mostly found in rough / damaged condition. It was tough to find a nice one.

first-model · Aug 5, 2019

Looks like I need to start the Springfield Arms Company online registry.

I'll get mine out of the safe tonight and post photos.

And thanks for this thread. I had given this gun very little thought until now, but it just might be worth pursuing some more.

Mike

first-model · Aug 5, 2019

GRI said:
Thanks Mike! I think what is telling is the marketing of their arms to Mexico. From what I see there are very few of these arms around, most marked with the S&W logo. Though there was a war on here with a high demand, sending them south of the border may have been a way around the patent infringement. If the majority went south, the guns are scarcer than we think.

Military contracts had the obvious appeal of generally being high volume, and they were also good for marketing purposes ... so I can understanding them wanting to sell to whatever militia was willing to pay. That said, I don't know anything about the specifics of their arrangement with whatever militia in Mexico they were shipping to, so it's anyone's guess.

Mike

GRI · Aug 5, 2019

first-model said:
Military contracts had the obvious appeal of generally being high volume, and they were also good for marketing purposes ... so I can understanding them wanting to sell to whatever militia was willing to pay. That said, I don't know anything about the specifics of their arrangement with whatever militia in Mexico they were shipping to, so it's anyone's guess.

Mike

Another aspect for 1864 is that the arms were intended for the South. Because of blockades, Mexico was the transfer point of least resistance. US guns were generally shipped from New York by steamer down to Mexico and I have noted shipments being seized in New York intended for the South. The more I think about it, the more it seems less likely the shipment was stopped by S&W and more likely because it was believed the arms were headed for the South.

Springfield Arms S&W Revolver

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