.38-44 or .38 Special??

Oldmanwesson · #1 12-05-2020, 06:10 PM

I have this awesome S&W Model 3 target in .38-44 and I'm wondering if you could fire a .38 Special cartridge with it. The .38 Special fits perfectly and from the research I did the bullet diameter is almost identical to a .38-44. I know the target cartridge was meant to be a "gallery load" but when you look at the gun it should easily be able to take the pressure of a .38 Special. The barrel is a standard .44 No. 3 so the barrel walls are much thicker than on a .44, which I'm assuming produces much more pressure than a .38 Special. I read somewhere that the .38-44 is not interchangeable and would have to be specially made. Any thoughts?
Also, is there a modern cartridge for the .32-44??

glowe · #2 12-05-2020, 06:23 PM

The 38-44 Target caliber used a drilled through chamber and the brass was the full length of the cylinder. It was .361" diameter bullet, not .357". Can you shoot a 38 Special in the revolver without it blowing up?? Maybe, but why? One can obtain 357 Max brass, cut it down and load a .361 bullet. Loading the bullet will expand the case so it seals in the chamber when shot. I have done it for a few years now. After the first shots, the bullet will enlarge the case and using a 38 S&W set of dies, you can reload the cases without problems. 38 Special can split in the chamber and one has to be careful about loading light for this relatively weak frame revolver. It can also shave lead as the bullet can enter the barrel at an angle, since it will travel a distance in the chamber without touching the cylinder before entering the barrel.

deadin · #3 12-05-2020, 11:17 PM

If you want to shoot 38 Special in a 38-44, get a 38 Heavy Duty..

Oyeboteb · #4 12-05-2020, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadin

If you want to shoot 38 Special in a 38-44, get a 38 Heavy Duty..

Yes...

That simple!

BMur · #5 12-06-2020, 12:57 AM

I honestly don’t know how the “Gallery” term is assigned to the New Model 3 Target revolver? It’s not a target load.

The “Gallery Ball ” was introduced as a low velocity, low black powder charge “Ball” loading designed for fun close range practice shooting. Often I have read That the origin of the term “ Gallery
Shooting was for “indoor shooting”as well. This is not the Target load nor is it the Target bullet.

The Gallery Ball was actually part of every caliber Smith & Wesson reloading kit after 1887 and came with every pistol caliber until 1912! “ Every Pistol “ That includes the 38 Special and all caliber hand ejectors! It’s just for fun!

So basically you can shoot the Gallery Ball in “ Every” Smith and Wesson Pistol from 32cal to 44 cal. That was and is the concept.

The original “target bullets”were conical in basic design( some hollow based and some heeled) with a stout standard loading of 23 grains of FFFG black powder compressed. That’s not a light load!
I’ve shot this exact load with the heavier Target bullets in my 38/44 Target New Model 3 and it’s no slouch. A definite nail driver!

Murph

rct269 · #6 12-06-2020, 01:12 AM

As it happens, the 38-44 discussed here has no relationship whatsoever to the 38/44 which occasioned the Heavy Duty revolver----hence the difference perhaps without distinction between a dash (-) and a slash (/).

Where to start? Yes, this 38-44 is a target load, but more by virtue of design of the cartridge (enabling zero throat----up until the cylinder was lengthened) than the strength/power of the load. There are two different 38-44 loads (both black powder), one using a 146 grain round nose bullet and 20 grains (presumably fff) of powder---the other a 70 grain round ball and 6 grains of powder.

Those are the two loads S&W intended for the NM #3 Target------period(.)

Can you chamber a .38 Special? It never occurred to me to try, but you say you can, and I accept that. Will it go bang? I presume so---firecrackers will too. Will it damage the gun? I presume so---eventually. You say you have an "awesome" gun. I hope you have enough respect for it to keep it that way.

It occurs to me you may not be familiar with a primary consideration of loading black powder cartridges---compression of the powder. Our friend glowe said it best when he noted a black powder load with air space defines a pipe bomb.

Ralph Tremaine

Oyeboteb · #7 12-06-2020, 01:52 PM

Around 1900, A.L.A. Himmelwright designed what are regarded as the first Bullets especially intended for Paper Target, being soon nick-named "Wadcutters"...

Here is an image showing the original two for .44 Russian, and for the .38 - 44, which Molds could be had from "IDEAL" - the latter also soon on being sized down for use in the then new .38 Special.

Hosted on Fotki

I have IDEAL Molds for both of these, and also some other variations of them from other early 1900s Mold Makers, and here is the last casting session I did on Halloween Night, using an old Cramer Mold I think, for casting up 110 of the .44s -

Hosted on Fotki

Granted, originally, there was only the quite limited Bullet choices which the Commercial Ammunition Makers offered for Gallery ( 'Ball' ) and Target Cartridges, or what-ever Mold and Loading Kit combinations as S & W or others happened to offer for any of the New Model 3 or other Target Revolvers' chamberings, but, soon on, people were free to commission or Order other Molds and or to adapt and use whatever Bullets they liked which would fit, which they felt were worth trying or using.

Oldmanwesson · #8 12-06-2020, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Can you chamber a .38 Special? It never occurred to me to try, but you say you can, and I accept that. Will it go bang? I presume so---firecrackers will too. Will it damage the gun? I presume so---eventually. You say you have an "awesome" gun. I hope you have enough respect for it to keep it that way.

No, I would never try to shoot it if it was questionable; hence the question... I probably wouldn't shoot it anyway, even if I had original ammo for it, but I was just wondering since it was such a perfect fit...
And yes, one must not confuse the 1800's 38-44 with the 1940's 38-44. Two different animals.
Thanks for all your experise.

BMur · #9 12-06-2020, 04:04 PM

I totally agree with Phil,
After all it was "Target Shooters" who convinced Smith & Wesson to introduce the Target variation of the New Model 3 to begin with. We owe it to them to except their contribution to Smith & Wesson history and definite improvements to manufacture.

Right after introduction in 1887, the "Ideal Company" introduced two other "Target bullet" designs that were most definitely an improvement. Both a hollow based 110 grain round nose and 110 grain heeled bullet with additional grease grooves to improve lubrication and bullet performance over the older 2 groove .38 caliber design that was basically obsolete the same year of introduction!!

Target shooters were still NOT satisfied since these new design bullets would not allow "accurate scoring" on paper targets. "What a mess that was" at shooting contests! Arguing on score based on tears in the paper target?
It wasn't until the Wadcutter was introduced as Phil mentioned. This bullet provided an accurate scoring of target shots by producing a perfectly round hole in the target.

So, there is quite a bit of history here that should not be ignored or disregarded as insignificant based on solely what was introduced and engineered by Smith & Wesson. It went way beyond that basic design and the fact is these new bullets were a vast improvement in the New Model 3's accuracy and potential at the range. This is clearly seen with higher scores in contests as bullets improved in design and lubrication.

So, Oldmanwesson.....there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't shoot your New Model 3. Assuming its in good enough condition to safely shoot? You must simply do a little research on safely loading black powder cartridges with the proper size bullet/lubrication/ case size and length/ primer select/ etc. I've shot mine many times with various loadings of "black powder" and it's a lot of fun to shoot.

This type of shooting is an advanced level of shooting since you basically have to "make up" your own cases and loadings for an "Antique" revolver where original loads are not available.Most people never reach this stage. Most people buy ammo they don't load their own. It's obvious to people who actually load their own. Solutions become simple and fun.

Murph

Jim Watson · #10 12-06-2020, 04:53 PM

Can you shoot .38 Special in a .38-44 Target?
Yes. I have shot midrange wadcutters in one just to see if it worked before tooling up to cut .357 Maximum to cylinder length.
Did the brass bulge like Specials in a reamed BSR?
Yes.
So what? So did the trimmed Maximum cases, they were the right length, but still smaller in diameter.

Would I shoot full power Specials? No, it isn't the thickness of the cylinder walls that counts, it is the strength of the top latch and hinge that matter.

The guy I got mine from had been shooting .38 S&W in it. They didn't bulge, but he didn't hit much, either.

BMur · #11 12-07-2020, 12:37 AM

The below photo depicts in my opinion the most accurate bullet for both the 38-44 And 44 Russian New Model 3 at 20 yards.
One could argue that the hollow base Wadcutter ( see photo) is more accurate? But For some reason this lighter hollow base blunt nose performs better in my Target Guns. I’m still working on that load.
There is a heeled variation of the same bullet but I have not been able to dial that bullet in either. Work in progress.

Murph

Oyeboteb · #12 12-07-2020, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

The below photo depicts in my opinion the most accurate bullet for both the 38-44 And 44 Russian New Model 3 at 20 yards.
One could argue that the hollow base Wadcutter ( see photo) is more accurate? But For some reason this lighter hollow base blunt nose performs better in my Target Guns. I’m still working on that load.
There is a heeled variation of the same bullet but I have not been able to dial that bullet in either. Work in progress.

Murph

Who made the second Mold? And what info or numbers does it have on it?

What a lovely Bullet!

First mold looks like what would be used in Cap & Ball sometimes, only, I do not know of any Cap & Ball Revolvers which took a .429 ish Bullet, but i have an almost identical Mold in .451 ish, which was supposed to be for the Remington new Model 44s...and IDEAL ( and others ) also made the same Bullet Mold as a flat base.

Also, which is which here/ Which ones are which Calibers?

BigBill · #13 12-07-2020, 03:46 AM

Dont some guys ream the cylinder for shooting 357 mag?

StrawHat · #14 12-07-2020, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBill

Dont some guys ream the cylinder for shooting 357 mag?

I believe you are confusing the New Model 3 Target Revolver which is a top break design with the 38/44 Heavy Duty which is a Hand Ejector.

The New Model 3 Target is not strong enough for 357 S&W Magnum rounds.

Kevin

glowe · #15 12-07-2020, 10:18 AM

I am certain that the molds are very expensive to purchase and I have to say that standard 145g LRN 38 S&W bullets perform very well and are certainly much more economical to buy or cast using a Lee mold.

As for the .357, the cylinder is factory bored straight through as noted above and 357 brass will drop right in. However, the standard 357 length cartridge is too long for the cylinder unless the bullet is set deep into the case. I think the poster was referring to using the brass and not the actual 357 Magnum round. Again, using the 357 case will leave a gap inside the cylinder for the bullet to jump until it enters the barrel. Again, it could tilt, shaving lead, or give erratic results on target, or both.

Lastly, the 28 Special brass can exhibit the same problems as the 357 brass, but since it jumps a longer unconfined space in the barrel, will be more likely to lose velocity, shave lead, and skew the bullet before hitting the barrel. 357 brass is readily available and I even can find it in stock right now, so go buy some brass and buy or cast some 38 S&W bullets if you intend to shoot that revolver.

So far, I have tested about a dozen loads in 38-44 Target and find that a load of 3F, which only fits 10 grains and a 145g LRN shoots quite slow, under 500 fps. To date, I have found that Trail Boss and Unique are offering the best potential, while still running a very mild 600 fps. Remember that the space for powder is quite small once the bullet is fully set in the case, so even small quantities of powder will result in very uniform results with very low SDs. I am also going to try HBWC in .357", thinking that the hollow base will allow the bullet to fully engage the larger rifling.

Part of the fun of shooting this caliber is testing various bullets and loads to find the most accurate powder & bullet combination. I think the Model 3 has the potential to be a real tack driver if one is willing to put in the time.

BMur · #16 12-07-2020, 12:46 PM

Agreed!

The target molds are "very expensive" when found...If you can get one for under $200 you are doing well. So, it's not exactly a cheap option.

Phil,
The first photo is the Ideal bullet introduced in approximately 1888...Just after the Target New Model 3 was introduced. It's a 110 grain heeled or 100 grain hollow base bullet specifically designed for the Smith & Wesson New Model 3 Target gun. I'm sure you could get a lot more black powder into the original balloon head case with this bullet? It does look a lot like the Remington/Colt flat nose.

The standard S&W bullet photo'd with single lubrication(inside) was introduced in 1887..I have no idea if it was actually the "original" target bullet but I honestly believe that the double ban inside lubricated bullet photo'd was S&W's target bullet from introduction in 1887. I haven't been able to verify that yet though. I'm still trying to locate an "Early" ideal loading tool for the 38-44..Those date to 1887.

I have both S&W Peanut molds with both bullets cast so that doesn't help as to what year? It does make sense though that Smith & Wesson would have introduced that bullet. See photo.

Also, the cheapest and perhaps the best option is the 360148 S (Square head) wadcutter. This is the absolute best option in my opinion for the 38-44 Target New Model 3.

The Wadcutter molds are the cheapest molds out there. So just keep an eye out for the 360 number on the mold and you are going to have an excellent bullet for the Target gun no matter what the bullet weight. They are not hard to find and most people don't recognize them as anything but a typical 38 cal wadcutter mold. So you can get them for under $40.

Murph

BMur · #17 12-07-2020, 01:16 PM

Here ya go Phil,
Several options for the 360 bullet. There are actually many more out there so there are a lot of options for the Target shooter/New Model 3 in the original 38-44. I'd even like to eventually try a Semi-wadcutter but I think the Wadcutter is gonna be hard to beat for accuracy up to say 25 yards. Just need to dial in the load/ seating depth/ primer selection/ and lubrication type. Not to mention powder selection? FFFG Goex? FFFG Swiss? etc? A lot of options.
Once you have the gun dialed in at 25 yards then you have to get brave and work in a load at 50 yards. After all, that's what these guns were designed for....I'm thinking the Semi-wadcutter would be the best bullet for longer distance. More stable than the round nose because of the longer skirt? Don't know for sure.

Murph

Oyeboteb · #18 12-07-2020, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

Here ya go Phil,
Several options for the 360 bullet. There are actually many more out there so there are a lot of options for the Target shooter/New Model 3 in the original 38-44. I'd even like to eventually try a Semi-wadcutter but I think the Wadcutter is gonna be hard to beat for accuracy up to say 25 yards. Just need to dial in the load/ seating depth/ primer selection/ and lubrication type. Not to mention powder selection? FFFG Goex? FFFG Swiss? etc? A lot of options.
Once you have the gun dialed in at 25 yards then you have to get brave and work in a load at 50 yards. After all, that's what these guns were designed for....I'm thinking the Semi-wadcutter would be the best bullet for longer distance. More stable than the round nose because of the longer skirt? Don't know for sure.

Murph

I do have those three! ( Or, I mean, I have the old IDEAL Molds for them... and some other kin, via Cramer or Modern Bond and Yankee...been taking the occasional 'Stolen Hour' to be casting, but Work-Work has been so over-whelming, I have not loaded anything in ages now! )

Thanks for the pics!!

Oldmanwesson · #19 12-12-2020, 01:49 AM

[QUOTE=BMur So, Oldmanwesson.....there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't shoot your New Model 3. Assuming its in good enough condition to safely shoot? You must simply do a little research on safely loading black powder cartridges with the proper size bullet/lubrication/ case size and length/ primer select/ etc. I've shot mine many times with various loadings of "black powder" and it's a lot of fun to shoot.
[/QUOTE]

It's in practically new condition. It was factory restored in 1926 and I don't think it's been used since. Another reason why I'm hesitant to even try...

StrawHat · #20 12-12-2020, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldmanwesson

It's in practically new condition. It was factory restored in 1926 and I don't think it's been used since. Another reason why I'm hesitant to even try...

How about sharing a photograph, or several, with us?

Kevin

murphydog · #21 12-12-2020, 10:19 AM

Nowhere near an expert on these, but if your goal is just to shoot the gun a very light load in a .38 S & W (not Special) case should work. The bullet diameter is the same, .361". Without a charge hole shoulder accuracy may be indifferent, however.

Oldmanwesson · #22 12-12-2020, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawHat

How about sharing a photograph, or several, with us?

Kevin

Thought you'd never ask...

Kinman · #23 12-12-2020, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldmanwesson

Thought you'd never ask...

That is one beautiful piece...good luck figuring that one out.

Wiregrassguy · #24 12-12-2020, 07:03 PM

Dayum! That's gorgeous!!

BMur · #25 12-12-2020, 08:38 PM

Wow,
Yeah, That’s not a shooter in my book. That’s collector grade condition. I couldn’t pull the trigger either. It will lose value for sure!

Because of the rarity of the caliber the later long frame is also quite rare. The existing condition as a factory restoration? NO WAY! If it was a more common gun I’d consider it.

Get yourself a much lesser grade example to shoot. That’s what I would do.

Murph

Oldmanwesson · #26 12-12-2020, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

Wow,
Yeah, That’s not a shooter in my book. That’s collector grade condition. I couldn’t pull the trigger either. It will lose value for sure!

Because of the rarity of the caliber the later long frame is also quite rare. The existing condition as a factory restoration? NO WAY! If it was a more common gun I’d consider it.

Get yourself a much lesser grade example to shoot. That’s what I would do.

Murph

I think I agree. It would hurt to shoot this one... My 3rd Model Russian is a very nice piece, too, and it is in very fine condition. I have shot it a few times but spent more time cleaning it afterwards than I spent shooting it. This one is special and will stay in the display case. My interest in the whole 38-44 vs 38 Special was more "hypothetical" in nature.

Trigger73 · #27 01-29-2022, 02:33 AM

I have a New Model No. 3 target and found factory ammo. You can shoot .38 S&W through it. Definitely not Special. I can't figure out how to post pics. The frame is plenty strong. It's the cylinder that's weak and can't handle the pressure.

Frontier44 · #28 02-09-2022, 03:34 AM

Here is a good article on the original loading for the New Model #3 38-44 target round.

S&W 3rd Model Target / 38-44 Reloading | RVB Precision

As you can see in his photos that the case runs up to almost even with the front of the cylinder chambers. The chambers have no force-cone so I guess it would be okay to shoot 38 special or maybe 38 long colt using only black powder, not smokeless, in the revolver but I’m not sure if it would affect accuracy by using the much shorter 38 special or 38 Colt case.

Another couple notes and I hope I’m not repeating what someone else has mentioned in the thread but the “38-44 target cartridge” is just that, a cartridge designation.
The later swing out cylinder 38-44’s are a model designation, a 38 special built on the more heavy duty size 44 frame.