Single Shot Transition from Recoil Shield to Groved

Boulder350

Boulder350

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I track serial numbers on 38 SA 3rd models and Single Shot 1st models. I have info on 167 serial numbers. I look for trends in features on these guns. One item that peaks my interest is the transition from a recoil shield on the single shots to the groved side plate. Right now i have serial numbers for guns that have most of the recoil shields removed, recoil shields that are completly removed, and then the groved side plates. Three are mostly flat with most of the recoil shields removed, 4 are flat with the entire recoil shield removed, and 5 have the groved side plates. All of these are the first models. The serial numbers are all over the board and dont have an order. The lowest one is 15333 and the highest one is 22991.

Does anyone have single shots with these features that I can add to the list?
 
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I too was queer for single shots, finally having one of each barrel length for all the .22's---but only one centerfire. That said, I've never even seen one that's flat or mostly flat. I'm assuming you believe these modifications were factory in origin---have you been able to secure any documentation to that effect?

Let me suggest you get a hold of Terry Wagner (if he doesn't see/respond to your post)-----he's a walking encyclopedia of first models.

Ralph Tremaine
 
Ralph,
I do think they are factory modifications. There are to many out there and they appear to be consistant, at least the ones that have most of the shields removed, to be one off gun smith modifications. The ones with groves in the side plates definatly look like factory work.
I sent an email to Terry for his thoughts. Wish i was able to go to the last Symposium to see his display. I did see pictures on the forum, amazing.
 
This has little to do with flat or almost flat, and you may have seen me shooting my mouth off before on this, but the grooves on the 2nds and 3rds
aren't there just to break up empty space-----as I once supposed. The 3rds have the same barrel, but the lug is ground off to accommodate the Perfected frame. Grinding it off flat would be sufficient, but they ground it off to what I have come to call "fancy flat"--and it took a lot more than one machining operation----and a good deal more time and money. I started wondering why the man in the corner office would approve such foolishness---along with the grooves on the frames. The answer was it wasn't foolishness, so why would he approve it?

All of a sudden one day, it dawned on me----weight. It clearly wasn't to make the guns lighter, so it had to be balance. One thing led to another, and I hanged a 10" 1st/2nd/3rd on a rod spanning a couple of chair backs. All three guns hung at virtually the same angle. I say virtually because the 1st had been shipped to Germany, and it came back with a larger (heavier) front sight---and a shorter (lighter) mainspring-----just to mess up my experiment.

I decided they'd received more than a few favorable comments on the balance of the 1st, and went out of their way to make the 2nd's and 3rd's the same---and it worked!

Ralph Tremaine
 

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Here is a first model with a 2 pin frame and groves on the side that recently sold at auction. Another transitional gun.
 

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This may be old news, but all these 1st Model, 2nd Model, two pin frame, one pin frame, two line, one line barrel barrel address distinctions were put to rest by Jinks at a point in time when I'd decided a two pin frame was a 1st Model and a one pin frame was a 2nd Model. He told me the serial number was the only thing that counted----never mind any of the physical characteristics.

Ralph Tremaine

Edited to add------I should have said they're going to letter as a 1st or 2nd depending on the serial number--------never mind any of the physical characteristics----and you can call them whatever suits you.
 
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Transitional Serials and Description

Early number 14055 has no recoil shields, a smooth flat side frame, 10 inch barrel, .22 cal.,in blue.

15189 has the recoil shields machined down, 8 inch .38 S&W, and in blue.

Number 15248 has slightly wider grooves than all later models, 8 inch barrel. .22 cal., nickel with factory engraving, 3 piece ivory target grips.

18962 has the standard grooves, 8 inch .22 barrel and in nickel.

19529 has the standard grooves, 10 inch .22 barrel, and blued. Shipped 01-30-1901 to D. Kirkwood Co.

19650 has the standard grooves , 8 inch .22 barrel, and in blue. There is no cylinder hand.

19922 has a flat sided frame, no grooves, 10 inch .22 cal. and in blue. Shipped 4-7-1902 to Schovering & Gail

23837 has the standard grooves like a second model, 10inch .22 cal, blued with Roper Target Thumb Rest grips. Trigger has a set screw for adjustable stop. Shipped 5-27-1908 to competition shooter William A. Armstrong.
 
Ralph,

Thank you for you overly high opinion of my knowledge on Single Shots!
I have been collecting these for over 30 years now and display by serial number. It is easy to see the changes made as per shipping dates more than serial number order.

Mark... The latest number I have 23837 was shipped in 1908, after the second models were introduced. It is without the recoil shield and the cut for a cylinder hand. Still a first model range in serial number and has the two pin frame. The second models also had two pin frames up to around number 1500. Strange but are for real "factory done".

Another strange thing is the idea that when sold as a single shot frame and not a revolver, the number is said to always show on the front strap. Not so due to the great number of lettered matching number single shots being butt numbered.
I also believe a greater number of single shots were shipped to individuals than any other S&W model. I do not have letters on all in my collection, but so far 15 letter as being sent to individual shooters.
A short list of directly "shipped to":
Dr. R.H. Sayre, Dr. D.J. Brown, Joseph H. Wesson, Dr. Fred W. Powell, Admiral H.B. Wilson, Charles Din, A.C. Freeman, Brigadere General John P. Wood, J.P. Vanderloh, William H. Armstrong, J.W. Hodges, Victor Carlson, Major W.L. Allison, and W.S. Brown.

Terry Wagner
 
I never realized it was even remotely near the highest number, but I had 23001. It shipped to Bekeart Co. March 9, 1905-----a stock as a stove 8" .22.

Ralph Tremaine

I said this was as stock as a stove, but now that I think about it, it may very well have been missing the hand and the cylinder stop. Of course that stuff could very well have been removed by an earlier owner who was offended by its presence in the first place.
 
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Thanks Terry. I didn't have any of the guns from your list on mine.

Here is what I have so far...

Flat: 14055, 15333, 17510, 18215, 19308, 19992

Mostly Flat/Mostly Removed Shields: 15189, 16210, 20731, 22885

Grooved: 18777, 18962, 19529, 19531, 19650, 21400, 21850, 22991, 23887

Wider Grooved: 15,248

It makes sense that shipping records are a better way to track the transition than the serial number since none of these slower moving guns were shipped in order of serial number. Most of my records come from pictures on the internet so I have held very few. I have not been tracking 2 pin or 1 pin frames, should probably add that.

I have 2 letters for mine. One shipped to Mr AC Gould, serial number 13350, in 1896. The other went to M W Robinson, serial number 18389, in 1898. I should request a letter for the other one I have. Its interesting to see from your records that they started shipping the transitional models as early as 1901.

Off topic but a side note. I have info on 176 Model of 91's and first model single shots. 95 currently wear revolver barrels and 81 currently wear single shot barrels. Barrel swapping was so common with this model its hard to know what the factory originally send without a letter for each.
 
Here's some info on a Model of '91 you may not have in your data:

Jinks opines #22530 was assembled as a fixed sight gun, converted to and shipped as target by the factory. It carries the Lyman Ivory Slide rear sight/Lyman Ivory Bead front, was shipped to Markt & Hammacker, New York City June 7, 1910, and as near as I recall, it now lives at Terry Wagner's home.

Ralph Tremaine

-----and it's blue, has a 6" barrel, and wears the black hard rubber target grips.
 
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Thanks Ralph. Do you remember if it said Model of 91 on top of the barrel? Yours was close to the time when they ran out of 6" barrels marked Model of 91. In my records serial number 22165 has a 6" revolver barrel and was marked Model of 91. Then your serial number. Then serial number 22757 that had a 6" barrel and it too was marked model of 91. The first serial number with a 6" barrel that did not have Model of 91 on it was 23402. Those are the last revolvers in my records that currently wear a 6" revolver barrel.
 
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Well you're just a fountain of obscure information!!

The fact of the matter is I'm almost certain it DID NOT have a two line (Model of '91) barrel on it----and I was perplexed. Added to that is the fact the latch wasn't numbered. Jinks explained away the unnumbered latch in short order------sight/latch swapping was done in the Service Department (and there was no need to number the latch because they only worked on one gun at a time ------no need to worry about mixing up parts from more than one gun). I got this gun in the early 90's sometime, and flat don't remember if I asked him about the one line address or not. I'm certain the barrel was numbered to the gun, which gave me adequate comfort. The better news is I'm almost certain about the whereabouts of this gun (Terry Wagner's house), and he can confirm/deny anything I've said.

Ralph Tremaine
 
6 Inch 1891 Revolvers

Boulder350 said:
Thanks Ralph. Do you remember if it said Model of 91 on top of the barrel? Yours was close to the time when they ran out of 6" barrels marked Model of 91. In my records serial number 22165 has a 6" revolver barrel and was marked Model of 91. Then your serial number. Then serial number 22757 that had a 6" barrel and it too was marked model of 91. The first serial number with a 6" barrel that did not have Model of 91 on it was 23402. Those are the last revolvers in my records that currently wear a 6" revolver barrel.
Click to expand...

Mark,

Number 22530 does NOT have the Modelof91 marked on the barrel and has a single line address. Barrel and frame match.
All matching number 021624 does NOT have the Modelof91 marked barrel but is different from 22530. It is marked with two lines
"SMITH & WESSON, SPRINGFIELD, MASS, U.S.A (next line)
PAT'D MAY 11 1880, JAN 3 1880, APRIL 9, 1880
 
It is my hazy recollection Ed Cornett gave me an entirely plausible, real life, and rather humorous explanation for the one line address on 22530. To wit: "Maybe the two line die was broken that day."

Ralph Tremaine
 
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