320 Revolving Rifle “Evaluation”

I think it’s time to post a solid thread on the 320 Revolving Rifle.

Introduced in 1879 on the New Model 3 platform with 3 barrel lengths of 16”, 18”, and 20”. I’ve also seen a special order 9” Target example.

I honestly believe it was originally intended for hunting small game using an easy to carry light weight firearm that could realistically take deer sized game when used efficiently.

The 98 grain .323 diameter flat point conical lead bullet backed by 17 grains of black powder was no slouch. I plan on shooting my example this spring and will report out on accuracy, bullet speed and performance down range.

Having a 6 shot cylinder, rapid follow up rounds would be a significant beneficial feature to this design. Also unique is the detachable stock that not only provides an easier carry platform in addition to versatility in different shooting environments.

What is often claimed as a major detriment being the cylinder gap exposing the shooter to powder flash is easily remedied with a coat sleeve or leather wrist strap commonly used when bow hunting. I will also report out on this powder flash and how significant or irrelevant it actually is when shooting original loads.

The design also incorporated a unique two piece barrel design that I’ve always admired from a machinist standpoint. In addition both the forearm and grips are mottled in color and add an artistic feature to the overall design that I personally never get tired of looking at up close.

This unique antique revolving rifle has always been undervalued in my opinion.

How about some input from those that have examples in their collection.

Murph

I’ve long appreciated those 320’s. I saw one at the Jack First Gunshop in Lancaster, Ca back in 1987-8 when I lived there. I recall it was priced at about $900 and as much as I wanted it, not affordable for me at the time.

Rare mold

In addition to the 320 Revolving Rifle being very scarce, the reloading tools and molds are “very rare”.

Murph

Which of the three Revolving Rifles shown will you shoot? Our late friend and gunsmith Dave Chicoine was featured in a magazine, years ago, shooting his. Unfortunately, I don't remember the publication or the specs. Will you light off some period, collector ammo or will you reload some empty shells? If the latter, what dies will you use and where did you find the shells?

I, sadistically, have always wondered about the effect of the barrel to cylinder gap as it relates to one's forearm. I won't volunteer mine, thank you. I'm already rubbing my hands together as I can't wait to hear the results.

I was in a LGS and a 20" version was brought in to be appraised (1985+/-). It was pristine except someone scratch an 8 point star or asterix on the side. The store valued it in the $1600 range. Not in a fitted case but a velvet bag.

The tools and accessories you already have should make assembling ammo pretty easy! Just don't forget to lube the bullets, maybe a 1/8" lube cookie below the bullet. Filling the front of the cylinder with lube or Crisco (just like a cap and ball revolver) will help keep the fouling soft and improve accuracy. On your powder charge, Different brands of Black Powder and grain size will produce different velocities. That's the way to get the ammo to shot to point of aim. Once you get ammo worked out, I would expect 100 to 200 yard small game accuracy, based on stories I've heard.

Ivan

Shooting

mmaher94087 said:

Which of the three Revolving Rifles shown will you shoot? Our late friend and gunsmith Dave Chicoine was featured in a magazine, years ago, shooting his. Unfortunately, I don't remember the publication or the specs. Will you light off some period, collector ammo or will you reload some empty shells? If the latter, what dies will you use and where did you find the shells?

I, sadistically, have always wondered about the effect of the barrel to cylinder gap as it relates to one's forearm. I won't volunteer mine, thank you. I'm already rubbing my hands together as I can't wait to hear the results.

Click to expand...

I’m glad you’re looking forward to the “Shooting results” Mike. The photos I posted aren’t mine. I have two in my collection. One is blued and pretty nice so that’s the safe Queen. The other is nickeled and average but fully functional with a nice bore and great lock up. I’ll be shooting that one. After which it will be next in line for a complete restoration of the finish. It’s what I do.

I’ll post a few photos in a couple days. I’m on honey due duty for the next few days, unfortunately.

Oh, as far as rounds? I’m going to use full length 32-20 rifle rounds with different .323 bullets. All pure lead. I take shooting pretty seriously with regards to hitting the target so multiple loads, multiple powders, and multiple bullets. One will surely perform well enough.

The photos depict only the shells I’ll be using. I don’t have the lead ready yet.

Murph

Proper loading

Ivan the Butcher said:

I was in a LGS and a 20" version was brought in to be appraised (1985+/-). It was pristine except someone scratch an 8 point star or asterix on the side. The store valued it in the $1600 range. Not in a fitted case but a velvet bag.

The tools and accessories you already have should make assembling ammo pretty easy! Just don't forget to lube the bullets, maybe a 1/8" lube cookie below the bullet. Filling the front of the cylinder with lube or Crisco (just like a cap and ball revolver) will help keep the fouling soft and improve accuracy. On your powder charge, Different brands of Black Powder and grain size will produce different velocities. That's the way to get the ammo to shot to point of aim. Once you get ammo worked out, I would expect 100 to 200 yard small game accuracy, based on stories I've heard.

Ivan

Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice Ivan,
It’s gonna be fun I’m sure.

Murph

I'll need to look up the specs on the 32-20 shells to see how they compare to the S&W .320's. I won't shoot any vintage rounds that I have because they are too difficult to find and too expensive to boot.

Will you use the 32-20 dies? Hurry up and get the Honey-do out of the way. I'm waiting....

I own a NM3 chambered in 320 RR that I want to shoot. Have been accumulating bullet molds, reloading tools, and had some custom brass made for it. I have 50 cases made for the project that are for the 321 bullet. Do you have 320 RR reloading tools? I haven't found one yet so was planning on using the 32 Ideal reloading tools that have an adjustable bullet seater. I placed a vintage 320RR loaded round in the tool and it looks like it will work. Have yet to load any rounds.

Loads

The 32-20 rifle cases are perfect for the Revolving Rifle platform. The overall length is shorter but negligible. I’ll be using rifle bullets so accuracy should be excellent at 100 yards.

I’ll post a photo with the 32-20 empty in a revolving rifle chamber. It only needs the case mouth expanded to except a .323 bullet which is a simple task.

I have an original transitional 32-44 reloading kit. See photo. The tall die is perfect for the RR case. The only difference between the 32-44 Target and RR or in this case the 32-20 is overall length. Everything else is identical once the mouth is sized to .323 on the 32-20. Except of course the powder charge is quiet a bit more for the 32-20 representing the RR.

I’m not exactly sure how much black powder I’ll be able to get into that case. I’ll post the results when I load them up. I plan on a maximum FFFG load.

Murph

RR tools

Boulder350 said:

I own a NM3 chambered in 320 RR that I want to shoot. Have been accumulating bullet molds, reloading tools, and had some custom brass made for it. I have 50 cases made for the project that are for the 321 bullet. Do you have 320 RR reloading tools? I haven't found one yet so was planning on using the 32 Ideal reloading tools that have an adjustable bullet seater. I placed a vintage 320RR loaded round in the tool and it looks like it will work. Have yet to load any rounds.

Click to expand...

Wow, custom shells!
The problem with trying to duplicate exactly the original load and case length is honestly, the original powder. Swiss is probably close to the original sporting powder that was used back then but we don’t know that for a fact. I can say with absolute certainty that early black powder was much more potent than todays.

In my opinion loading a Target case without a solid crimp will not produce Target accuracy using todays powder.

I’ve tried it with the 38-44 target gun and the powder burn was terrible “unless” a crimp was used. The results at the target were also average to poor from a target perspective.

However, with a good solid crimp to the identical load resulted in the powder burn being even between all rounds fired and results were outstanding at the paper target.


Murph

Revolving Rifle

In my experience the diameter of the Revolving Rifle bullet is .320". I have pulled bullets from original shells and that's what they measured. The RR and the 32-44 Target cartridge bullets have the same diameter, .320". I believe, but have no proof, the 32-44 Target cartridge is just a shorten 320 RR case.

I have used 32-20 cases to load for the RR using bullets cast from a original mold. The combination seemed to work fine.

B. Mower

Original bullet diameter

I plan on slugging the revolving rifle in question as I do with all my target shooters. The results will be absolute. My choice of bullet will be determined by my findings. Target shooting is about dialing in the load. Old term “Match Loading”. It doesn’t get better than that.

Well, unless we want to cheat and Lazer cast! That’s some amazing stuff.

Murph

Accuracy?

orbruce said:

In my experience the diameter of the Revolving Rifle bullet is .320". I have pulled bullets from original shells and that's what they measured. The RR and the 32-44 Target cartridge bullets have the same diameter, .320". I believe, but have no proof, the 32-44 Target cartridge is just a shorten 320 RR case.

I have used 32-20 cases to load for the RR using bullets cast from a original mold. The combination seemed to work fine.

B. Mower

Click to expand...

What kind of accuracy did you achieve? What distance?

Murph

I shoot a Thompson Contender with a custom barrel in .321 Bullschutzen. It was developed by the original owner of Bullberry Barrels for the Coors Bottling Co. for a Schutzen style handgun match. You start by cutting 3/4" off the end of a 32-40 cartridge, then sizing to a true .321, cast bullets are used and are breech seated into the rifling. It is suprisingly accurate at 100yds, one hole groups at 50. I'm not at all suprised that some are claiming 100yd accuracy on small game with the 32-40 cartridge. I run a scope on the Contender and it has a full bull barrel and very nice trigger.

The base (rim and head) of a 32-40 and a 32-20 are radically different!

The 32-40 is about the same case as a 30-30 Winchester, but with a tapper and a lot less volume. The 32-20 is a much smaller case than 38 Special. Several Schutzan 8mm cartridges are based on a shortened 32-40 case, but the 320 S&W case isn't one of them.

320 Case volume: In the text at the beginning, it mentions 17 grains of Black Powder. Most likely the modified 32-20 cases will hold a similar amount. Just remember when developing you load, don't forget an over the powder card (can be made from a cardboard milk carton or cork/fiber board .030" thickness.-I have used both in different cartridge building.)

Starting at the bottom, you have the primed case, then the powder charge (by volume or by weight, but they ARE NOT interchangeable!) Next would be a lube "cookie" Then the lubed bullet. (A lube cookie is a firm disc of bullet lube, for handgun rounds about 1/8" thick. A common lube cookie recipe is 1 part vegetable oil or Crisco and 2 parts paraffine melted together, cooled, then cut into cookies using the case mouth. You can use the same lube in the pan lubing of bullets.)

A charge of black powder, just poured into a case is very "Fluffy". Using a drop tube (24 to 36" long) will compress the powder before seating the bullet. (In a 45-70 or larger case, this compression is about 5/8"!) This gives space to get all the components in the case, without spilling powder everywhere!

If you have questions, feel free to PM me.

Ivan

Slugged

Well I slugged the bore and found exactly what the 1891 listing claims. See photo.

.323 Groove Diameter
.313 Land Diameter

The photo of the cartridge is only a prop to depict what I’m looking at for the design. Sharp conical lead bullet with a roll crimp and overall length right to the end of the cylinder.

I also found that the 32-20 rifle case can actually hold about 23 grains of FFFG Black powder. However the bullet must be set back into the case to meet max overall length so 17 grains is easily doable.

Murph

BMur said:

What kind of accuracy did you achieve? What distance?

Murph

Click to expand...

I was getting about a 6" group at 50 yards. However I only have the globe front sight no regular front sight at the time. The tang sight at the lowest setting still was shooting high, I finally used the regular rear sight with the front globe and was able to get a group on the target at 50 yards. With sight combination (globe and rear sight) it is difficult to get a good sight picture so I was happy I was hitting the target! Since that time I have made up a regular front sight but have not tried it out.

David Chicoine's book, "Sixguns Of The Old West" list the bullet diameter of the 320 RR and the 32-44 Target at .321". Photo's of my measurement attached below.

B. Mower

Bullet diameter

Thanks B. Mower,

There is definitely an understandable variance when it comes to measurements involving thousandths of an inch.

If you do end up under sizing a bullet to groove diameter at distances over 30 yards what I’ve found is you normally will group wide. As you get closer to matching actual groove diameter your group tightens significantly. Especially when using lead bullets. Excessive Gas cutting or blow by doesn’t agree with lead for some reason.

I’m going to closely examine another revolving rifle tomorrow and slug it as well. I’ll post what I find.

When I slug a bore I generally use a soft lead bullet that is no less than 5 thousandths oversized of the documented groove diameter. This generally insures contact with both the lands and grooves of the bore being slugged.

An undersized slug will only contact the lands of the rifling and give a false reading when measured. Very often your slug will read undersized which if taken as Accurate and applied to your final loading will produce much less than target shooting results at the target.

In fact I would rather go oversized by 1-2 thousandth’s with lead bullets than undersized “if” I’m shooting at distances beyond 30 yards.

Murph

Casting

The weather is terrible so I’m going to spend time casting. I’ve decided to use the 32-44 Target bullet (83 grain round nose) at the 50 yard target (see photos). They actually cast a bit oversized which I like.

I’ll use the heavier 98 grain flat point conical at the 100 yard target.

Using these two bullets is historically accurate for that period as they are original to this caliber.

The Revolving Rifle has a flip rear sight designed for two fixed distances. I’ll post a photo when I get a chance. I suspect the lower setting is the 50 yard target and the higher setting is the 100 yard target but I’m not sure. It will be very interesting to see where the bullets hit based on the rear sight setting.

I also have not decided on powder yet. I still have some Goex Black left but I might go with Triple 777. If I had some Swiss Black I’d use that as my first choice.

Murph