This cruddy weather helps me with my research at least.

I just confirmed the origin of the “Property Stamp” on the now confirmed “Second Contract” for the Wells Fargo Schofield 45 Express gun as being from:
VOLK STAMP & STENCIL Co. 151 E. Jefferson, Detroit

We know the first contract was initiated in the year, 1881-2. Those guns in that contract have the property stamp seen in photo’s 1&2. This new information also supports this stamp seen in photos 1&2 as being the first contract.

The second contract was initiated in 1891. Which is an extreme surprise to my research but is strongly supported by the 2nd introduction of US Surplus Schofields in Hartley & Grahams catalog “and” the now proven matching die stamps that came from the Volk Stamp Co that “began operations” in the year 1890. Fits like a glove.

This new information supports and extends the Schofields field service up to the turn of the century when more modern DA’s and Colt SAA’s were being ordered directly from the factory by Wells Fargo. The research is now very fluent and fills the gap as to why I couldn’t find earlier contracts to replace the Schofields. So the service time is now 1881-2 to 1899. Almost 20 years!

The second contract stamp is seen in photo 3. The proximity to Chicago is seen in photo 4. So this contract was likely marked and distributed from the Chicago Express office which also fits my research. A pretty huge breakthrough.

These are the only two confirmed contracts. There may have been smaller contracts but proving them as legit is very difficult.

Murph

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Here are some examples of legit 2nd contract Wells Fargo Property Stamps and unproven markings;

Photos 1&2 exhibit correct and proven Wells Fargo 2nd contract stamps from 1891 time frame.

Photos 3,4&5 exhibit unsupported examples that follow no pattern in my research and are unproven markings. I have several others in my research documents. Single unique examples like these are literally impossible to prove legitimate unless several more show up with identical markings that prove a pattern to support a smaller contract purchase by Wells Fargo.

Before the collector rules out a potential purchase, keep in mind that a large number of the Schofields were also purchased at the same time by AMERICAN EXPRESS those examples are marked totally different but exhibit the exact same contract features and barrel cuts as the WELLS FARGO examples.

Murph

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your third picture - 2916 - of your first post is in my possession. Imagine that... good to know this detail! Thanks for this work!!

Luck of the draw I guess. Your example is one of many that I have documented that match the early dies from Volk Stamp & Stencil Co. The research is ongoing. I’m still searching old Express Records for the specific Schofield contract reference. Here is one very interesting example from the old records that I was excited about;

I found Express Company written procedures that “required” each Messenger to be armed with a Company purchased pistol ( Listed as 45 caliber and 38 caliber)…. That would be the Smith & Wesson Schofield 45 and the Colt Lightning 38 during that timeframe and the requirement to “use that Company issued pistol in the event of robbery”. 4168 Messengers are documented in the ledger by 1892. That’s a lot of pistols! Each employee signed a legal document agreeing to follow this requirement and were held liable if they didn’t follow that procedure. So if you were a messenger for Wells Fargo or American Express in the 1880’s-1900 you were required to use your pistol! In writing no less!

Not like the movies! Some stuttering knee knocker behind a locked door? You approach that Express car and they’d take shots at you! The messengers weren’t someone to mess with.

Murph

Murph, following is quoted from the SCS&W 4th Edition, page 113:

“”The marking reads “W.F. & COS EX” along with a re-stamping of the guns serial number. The S was dropped from the company name in 1898, and guns are found marked both ways, suggesting the period of use.””

Further down on the same page the marking on Wells Fargo serial# 1 is pictured and described as “”Late italic, singular “CO.” company marking, with small type numerals.””

This seems to indicate that those correctly marked with the singular “CO.”, such as those pictured in your photos 1 and 2 in post #1 above, were stamped in or after 1898. However, you describe these as examples of the first contract initiated in the years 1881-2.

I see a disconnect between your information and the SCS&W regarding those stamped with the italic singular “CO.” company marking with small type numerals, and I’m wondering which is correct. I’m hoping your information is correct, but at this point I’m confused.

__________________
Terry Lester

Hi Terry,
Thank You for your input. I’m going to try my best to make this as short as possible. It’s my understanding that the source of that information was from a Wells Fargo Historian that was quoting Company policy changes that took place in the late 1890’s to streamline company markings throughout the country. Changing the Company logo from Wells Fargo and CO’s Express to Wells Fargo & Co Express. I do not disagree with this position.

However, this very late Company policy change in no way impacted the markings found on the Schofield revolvers. Since the revolvers were obsolete years before that policy change came into practice.

If you perform research on the history of Wells Fargo and Company logos throughout the country what you will find is NO policy was followed until about 1898. From the late 1840’s until 1898 timeframe you will find both Wells Fargo & Co Express and Wells Fargo and Co’s Express markings throughout the country. With absolutely NO pattern followed.

The Company was enormous and had thousands of offices throughout this country. To say “Any” policy was followed to the letter is not possible. Especially during that early time frame. I’m being as nice as I can. I have dozens of photos that depict both markings throughout that time frame mentioned.

I can go much more in depth regarding company markings but the simple fact is that position is not relevant to the Schofield revolvers and the purchasing of Schofields in the late 1890’s in very large quantities when they were discontinued before 1880 with parts eliminated about 1892 from distributors catalogs would not be a viable option for the Express Companies. My lengthy research “Factually “ documents Wells Fargo purchasing agents obtaining “Thousands of guns on contract” directly from the Colt Factory beginning in the mid 1890’s to replace the older Schofields from the first contract. These guns are marked from the Colt Factory: W.F.& Co. usually stamped on the butt. Those included D/A Swingout 38’s and SAA 45’s.

I have rock solid factory records to prove this occurred in very large numbers and a very gradual flow of guns monthly for many years. So the purchasing policy had already changed to “Factory purchasing and Factory Stamping” by the mid 1890’s. Years in fact before the Wells Fargo policy change even took place!

I can go much more in depth regarding purchasing agent procedural changes that took place to purchase directly from the factory. Once modern streamlined policy’s were implemented large company’s did not go back to obsolete procedures. Such as purchasing bulk Surplus guns At government auction or even purchasing from Distributors. They eliminated the middleman by purchasing and marking guns directly from the factory.

American Express also followed this policy exactly the same as Wells Fargo. I also have rock solid factory records for America Express purchases as well.

In depth Research is all about clarification.

Murph

Thanks very much Murph….sounds completely logical to me.

You might consider providing a recommended SCS&W update in Jim Supica’s thread at SCSW 4 Corrections, comments, suggestions as it is mis-leading as currently written.

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Terry Lester

Hey Terry,

I honestly don’t bother with updates anymore. It seems to generate hostility among people who are “set in their ways”. I’ve tried to update several websites on the 41 rimfire cartridge only to be lectured by people who refuse to see the light. I’ve grown tired of it. Let them believe what they want to believe.

Murph

Murph, do you have an estimate of how many Schofields were purchased by Wells Fargo and how many were purchased by American Express?

__________________
Terry Lester

Terry,
First we have to convince the members that the Schofields were “early contract guns” that were hand stamped. They were not late guns purchased by the Express Companies. So Pre-1892 contracts and obsolete after that time.

My following comments are relevant to only Wells Fargo and American Express. They are in no way applicable to U.S Express, Pacific Express, Adams Express or the smaller Express Companies of that era.

The early contract guns that were hand stamped by American Express were marked in the following manner:
AM. EX. CO. NO. 1. To AM. EX. CO. NO. 2850.
This is applicable to both the Colt Lightning revolver in 38 caliber and the Smith & Wesson 45 Schofield revolver. My research reached that high a number that is a Combination of both guns in total. In other words American Express numbered the guns as received with no consideration for make, model, or caliber beginning with 1 and ending with the highest number I’ve found so far being in the 2800 property number range.

The vast majority of those were 38 cal Colt lightnings. American Express preferred the 38 caliber over the 45 caliber pistol. I would estimate that American Express purchased roughly 500 Schofields and the rest were 38 cal Lightnings.

This contract number spanned from 1878-1888 at which time American Express changed their buying procedures to having the Major Distributor engrave the guns on the back strap beginning with 1 and ending with the highest number I’ve found in the 300 range. All Smith & Wesson 38 topbreaks. This represents the early purchasing procedure. Pre-1892. There were several smaller contracts that included 44 Smith & Wesson top breaks, Remington 36 cap & Ball, etc. I have documented several That amounted to several hundred earlier guns.

The Wells Fargo 45 cal Schofield purchase contracts were quite simply “HUGE”. Wells Fargo purchased just the opposite of American Express. More 45’s and less 38’s by a huge margin. Unfortunately, Wells Fargo property numbers matched the serial number of the gun and the total purchased is then speculative. However, based on many, many, facts that I have documented that continue in one direction only? Thousands of 45 Schofields were purchased by Wells Fargo that amount to over 2000 and less than 4000. Split between two known contracts. I would lean towards a 3000 number considering smaller purchases that are very difficult to confirm.


The simple fact is Wells Fargo and American Express had an enormous appetite for small arms at that time.

I have documented by “factory record” over 4000 38 caliber pistols purchased by American Express from 1892-1907 as an example. So their appetite only got bigger.

Murph

I would also strongly recommend that any collector that has a 45 Schofield with a cleanly cut barrel to 5” without Express markings left on the gun to have that gun checked for removed markings.

The best method is an acid mix that law enforcement used to find removed serial numbers. You can use the same method on the back strap to look for American Express stamped property markings and numbers. It would be worth it since those markings would greatly improve the guns historical significance and value. If I had one I would definitely try it.

Later Property stamps were actually engraved so I’m not sure those would reveal themselves but a stamp would since I have seen and actually have a Colt lightning that is stamped AM. EX. CO. With a property number and it is stamped deep.

Murph

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I had thought about it. The part that scares me is the "eat the uncompressed metal" part. Does anyone have a pic of markings recovered by that method? Thanks for your continued research on these models.

__________________
PTLAPTA!

There are other ways to check for the removed stamps. The automotive industry has some very high tech stuff now that searches for imperfections in high stress parts. Many moons ago when I was into fast cars we would Magna flux parts to search for cracks before assembling a high output V8.

See photos.(new methods)
These new methods are not damaging and would also provide an image that can be printed, documented, and added as some great provenance. The only question is “would it work”? I don’t know but I would try it for sure if I had a suspect Express gun!

Murph

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Hi There,


It has been a long time since I played with high output small block Chevys but
Magnaflux® was a process for finding cracks and inclusions in ferrous parts.
I know there are now some penetrating fluorescing dies used to find cracks in
non-ferrous parts but I am unaware of any Magnaflux® products or procedures
that will find removed stamping impressions. Motor builders don't usually care
about raising serial numbers when building a motor.

I have seen "special" acids used in the coin collecting field for revealing worn
off dates on old coins. I used them as a kid when I was a budding numismatist.


Cheers!
Webb

The new methods are much higher tech than the old Magna flux technique.

I honestly don’t know if it would work but I would look into it since the technique that I show photo’d in my previous post appears to me to show metal density differences in the cam and rod photo’d. Not just imperfections that aren’t visible to the naked eye. So it’s not what the equipment was designed to do, it’s what the equipment can do.

That density difference would be applicable to die stamps since they are hammered onto the surface and compress the metal changing the density at the area of the strike. When removed that area normally remains. Since removal of the property stamp would more often be done to minimize metal damage for resale purposes.

It is possible that these new techniques would show that area as a shadow of different density metal. Almost like a negative in old photographs or an x-ray but I’m not sure. It’s worth a try in my opinion.

Or at least ask a tech if the equipment will show different metal density. If the answer is yes, it might work. It’s the same principle as drop forging.


Murph

I’m actually referencing my Schofield file now:

It’s amazing how one’s memory never jives with one’s documents.

Anyway;

From my file;

72% surveyed Wells Fargo confirmed examples are Model 1’s

28% surveyed Wells Fargo confirmed examples are Model 2’s

58% are first contract

42% are second contract

Highest confirmed serial number is in the 5500 range.

**** 9 examples are possible 3rd contract that my research is pointing South to likely Simmons Hardware Co. St. Louis, Missouri. I need several more examples to qualify but right now it’s very possible.

I’ve tallied 9 clear altered(fakes) most are above serial number 6000 and obvious.

12 unconfirmed stamps.

Also, American Express Examples were actually hand stamped ;
AMEXCO 1. To AMEXCO 2600. This is consistent with Colt lightnings in 38 cal and helps to date the stamp. When we cross reference them with Colt lightnings we find all examples stamped prior to 1893. (This information has nothing to do with earlier contracts that were smaller- 50-300-400 guns and prior to 1880 timeline).

This evidence follows exactly with my research timeline. The Schofields were obsolete after that time.

1893-1896 was the transition timeframe with some overlap for only Wells Fargo and American Express to factory purchased and factory marked very large contracts that amounted to thousands of pistols.

Other Express companies like Pacific, US Express, Adams Express, etc are not applicable to this timeline. However my lengthy research on those companies only supports a long standing continual flow in large volume of service revolvers on contract with Major Distributors of that era.


Murph