S&W American Bullet Mould

wlw-19958 · Jul 31, 2023

Hi There,

I am confused on certain aspects about bullet moulds for early
cartridges like the S&W American. Several sources list the
original "American" having a bullet and case of .438" to .440"
diameter.

Now, I have seen moulds for "heeled" bullets that are designed
with a base that is of reduced diameter that fits into the cartridge
case (like the Ideal moulds 386176 & 386177). Some diagrams
of the S&W American show that the original must of been of a
heeled bullet design (see pic).

But the Ideal 419180 mould isn't of a heeled bullet design. This
begs the question, "what is the barrel dimensions of the #3
American model?" I have read that the #3 American and
Russian models used the same barrel and the 44 Russian
used a barrel with a groove diameter of .429" (or at least
later versions have these dimensions).

Now, those of us that have used Ideal and later Lyman bullet
moulds, know the first three numbers generally refer to the
diameter of the bullet the mould casts (with some leeway given
that different lead-tin-antimony alloy mixtures will give different
results from the same mould). But this "leeway" is usually
only a couple of thousandths.

Bearing this information in mind, the 419180 mould would cast
a bullet in the .417" to .421" range before sizing. These would
be too small for a barrel with a .429" groove diameter. In fact,
they shouldn't be very accurate and a lot of gas would pass by
the bullet when fired.

In fact, this bullet would be suited to a barrel with a smaller groove
diameter. So, what was the groove diameter of the original American
model? Why isn't this bullet mould of the heeled bullet design?

Can someone explain this?

Cheers!
Webb

Alk8944 · Jul 31, 2023

I can't tell you the barrel dimensions for the .44 S&W AKA American, but my references show the major bullet diameter for loaded ammunition ranges mostly from .428" to .446". The Russian has the same barrel dimensions as .44 Special and .44 Magnum barrels, .420" bore, .429" groove.

Lyman bullet numbering is a bit different for heeled bullets. The first numbers designate the heel dimension that foes inside the case. There are three bullets Lyman made for .41 Short and Long Colt, 386176, 386177, 386178. The first two are heeled bullets and the major diameter of the bullets is .401. The 386178 is a hollow base bullet that goes entirely inside the case and the bullet is supposed to expand to fill the .401 groove diameter of the .41 Colt revolvers.

I cannot tell you why the #419190 isn't a heeled bullet because based on ammunition dimensions the American groove diameter obviously would have been ca. .429" The .419" diameter obviously reflects the inside diameter of the case of the American as would be expected for a cartridge using a heeled bullet, which the American certainly did.

I have never owned or loaded for the .44 S&W, although I have loaded for about 120 different cartridges in my life, mostly handgun calibers.

If you have any of the S&W history books that discuss the Russian and it's changes they may offer an explanation. Someone here probably has, and has loaded for an American and may offer assistance soon.

ADDED: I have looked on-line and cannot find any reference to American bore dimensions except the inference seems to be that they are the same as the Russian. The American definitely used a heeled bullet! I wonder if the #419190 isn't actually for some foreign cartridge and not really for the S&W American!

wlw-19958 · Jul 31, 2023

Hi There,

"I can't tell you the barrel dimensions for the .44 S&W AKA American, but my references show the major bullet diameter for loaded ammunition ranges mostly from .428" to .446". The Russian has the same barrel dimensions as .44 Special and .44 Magnum barrels, .420" bore, .429" groove."

I own couple #3NM in .44 Russian and have done considerable
research on this caliber. I also know that during the 19th century,
there was a lot of leeway in dimensions that ammunition manufacturers
used in making rounds. This was in the days of very soft lead and
very little litigation and soft lead is very forgiving.

"Lyman bullet numbering is a bit different for heeled bullets. The first numbers designate the heel dimension that foes inside the case. There are three bullets Lyman made for .41 Short and Long Colt, 386176, 386177, 386178. The first two are heeled bullets and the major diameter of the bullets is .401. The 386178 is a hollow base bullet that goes entirely inside the case and the bullet is supposed to expand to fill the .401 groove diameter of the .41 Colt revolvers."

Yes, I know about the anomaly in the numbering the .41 Colt bullet
moulds. I happen to own a Colt 1894 in this caliber (first handgun I got)
and my first bullet mould I purchased was the 386177. This was
before I understood the differences of inside lubricated and outside
lubed heeled bullets. I now have a Lyman 386178 and a Rapine
386185 moulds. I only used it because I had scans of those bullet
moulds from an old Ideal catalog I could easily post to show an
example of a heeled bullet.

"If you have any of the S&W history books that discuss the Russian and it's changes they may offer an explanation. Someone here probably has, and has loaded for an American and may offer assistance soon."

I have several books on Smith & Wesson and have studied the history
of the #3 and the Old-Old Model, Old Model and New Model Russians.
I am currently re-reading Major Charles Pate book: Smith &
Wesson American Model and it goes into a considerable detail on
the changes that occurred in the #3. It doesn't give any detail
on the dimensions of the groove and bore of the barrels other than
saying that there wasn't any difference in these dimensions between
the .44 American and .44 Russian. Only difference was the cylinder.

"I have looked on-line and cannot find any reference to American bore dimensions except the inference seems to be that they are the same as the Russian. The American definitely used a heeled bullet! I wonder if the #419190 isn't actually for some foreign cartridge and not really for the S&W American!"

Like you, I haven't found any information (other than the information
contained in Charles Pate's book) specifically pertaining to the S&W
American barrel dimensions but the 419180 bullet mould is listed
as for the S&W American in several of the Ideal "handbooks" I have.
Maybe they expect the bullet to be cast from very soft lead and
expect the obturation of the bullet when fired to take-up the difference.
I don't know and why I ask the question.

Cheers,
Webb

wlw-19958 · Jul 31, 2023

Hi There,

BMur said:
Ideal made a boo-boo with their later interpretation of the much earlier 44 American bullet Specs.

Original specs are .419 heel and .440 OD. This matches the original groove diameter of .440 and land diameter of .430 found on Smith & Wesson American revolvers. Later Americans may have used leftover Russian barrels which might add some confusion but these are the original specs.

The error seems to have been introduced in or around 1900 for Ideal and carried over to Marlin and later Lyman at the Middlefield address in or around 1926. Very soon thereafter the mold was discontinued.

The 44 American molds are rare. See photo 1 is the earliest mold manufactured in about late 1871. The heeled bullet measures .419/.440.

Winchester also offered a mold for this caliber and they got it right. I have one but it’s buried. My notes for the Winchester mold is also .419/.440. It’s the wood handled iron mold.

So it’s a later error made by Ideal that began about 25 years after the American was discontinued. Basically a misinterpretation of the original bullet design. All other Smith & Wesson calibers matched inside case diameter so it’s easy to see the error. What’s surprising is that they never caught it. Likely very low demand for that caliber after 1900.

Murph

This certainly makes sense to me. I'm sure those that purchased
the 419180 bullet mould were NOT happy when they tried out the
rounds they made.

On a side note, I am curious about the brass mould you posted
images of. There is a lever on the right hand side that I assume
engages the spur on the sprue cutter. Could you post images showing
this lever interacting with the sprue cutter?

Cheers!
Webb

BMur · Jul 31, 2023

Early tool

I’m glad you saved my post Webb,

My laptop is on the blink and populates boxes sometimes causing an attempted edit to delete my post entirely. I have to replace it.

I have both the 44 Russian and 44 American early combo reloading tool. It’s the earliest cartridge reloading combo tool manufactured that I know of. That lever you mention is used to pop out or pick out the early Berdan type primer. The large boss on the side of the tool actually acts to re-prime and reload the early copper case using the same lever.

Rare tools. Patented in October,1871. I have the patent somewhere.

Murph

wlw-19958 · Jul 31, 2023

Hi There,

Sorry, but I didn't save your post. I just replied to it before it got
deleted. I see now that I was "fooled" by the pic. Seeing both tools
together allowed me to see my folly. When the one tool was posted,
a piece of the background blended so well with the sprue plate that
I thought it was part of it, and I was trying to put its purpose together
with the lever on the side. Silly me.

Cheers,
Webb

mmaher94087 · Jul 31, 2023

Thanks guys. I wondered what happened as I closed the photos and the whole post was gone!

S&W American Bullet Mould

wlw-19958

Member

Attachments

Alk8944

US Veteran

wlw-19958

Member

wlw-19958

Member

BMur

Member

Attachments

wlw-19958

Member

Attachments

mmaher94087

SWCA Member

Similar threads

Latest posts