Oscar Young engraving

crofter · Sep 9, 2023

Are there names for the different levels of S&W factory engraving around 1889?
I have a New Model #3 Target factory engraved by Oscar Young. It has engraving almost up to the muzzle which I haven't seen on other examples of his work.
Is there a name for this style extended coverage?
What's the best book on S&W faory engraving of this period?
Where can I get copies of factory records for this 1889 gun?

mrcvs · Sep 9, 2023

Yes, there are different levels of engraving and a letter will tell you if your revolver is factory engraved and the level of engraving.

Letter Process - Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation

Masterpiece · Sep 9, 2023

crofter said:
I have a New Model #3 Target factory engraved by Oscar Young.

crofter,

First of all...Welcome to the Forum...Hope you'll find your time here very informative & will stop in again & again!!

Secondly...I surely hope your plans are to send in a Factory Research Request to get the Full Background of Your Revolver!! Main reason being I believe Your Revolver that you've posted is likely to be one of the Most Exquisitely Engraved NM#3's attributed to the Young Family...Very,Very Nice indeed!!

Now there is one slight difference of opinion that I personally have concerning which one of the Young Family engraved it...Hmmm!! The reason I make mention...After 50+ yrs of studying the Young Family's Engraving work...I'm getting a very strong vibe it was Oscar's Father (Gustave) to be the Engraver rather than Oscar himself!! Now don't get me wrong I can't say that with absolute certainty...Only that I see a lot of Gustave's past style in the Scroll-Work, Etc. incorporated into the overall work!!

Anyway...Not being a so-called "Expert" on the Young's...These are "MY" personal thoughts "Only"!! My only thoughts are that hopefully the Letter...Should you decide to acquire one...Will offer a wealth of information as to the details of it's background!!

Thanks so much again for a very exciting 1st Post!! Also...Any possibility of posting more Photos!! Personally I'd be very grateful if you could...Take Care!!

iby · Sep 9, 2023

Thank you for posting pics of you fabulous #3
I would be surprised if the Factory letter did not match the gun
Welcome to the Forum
Mike

handejector · Sep 9, 2023

VERY neat gun!
I don't think Oscar cut it. It might be contract engraving done for the Factory.
DEFINITELY order a letter and send many GOOD pics with the request.
Click---- Letter Process - Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation

crofter · Sep 9, 2023

Masterpiece said:
..I'm getting a very strong vibe it was Oscar's Father (Gustave) to be the Engraver rather than Oscar

Masterpeice, thanks very much for your comments. As it happens I already had a reason to wonder if it might have been Gustave. I will certainly get in touch with the Historical Foundation. I should have mentioned it has remains of a gold wash on the cylinder and beauifully fitted ivory stocks. It was apparently nickel plated at one time, which has worn off especialy where the engraving is.
I'll report back when I know more. Meanwhile I attach other photos.

crofter · Sep 9, 2023

handejector said:
It might be contract engraving done for the Factory.

Lee: interesting suggestion. Do you know if the factory contracted engravers to reproduce the patterns of the Young family?

Masterpiece · Sep 9, 2023

crofter said:
Masterpiece, thanks very much for your comments. I should have mentioned it has remains of a gold wash on the cylinder and beautifully fitted ivory stocks.

crofter,

Thanks so much for the Add'l Photos...Much appreciated!! Sorry...I was aware of the Gold Washed Cylinder & the Ivory Stocks, but failed to make mention in My Comments!!

I'm also "Very" curious now to hear of what the research reveals especially given...Lee (handejector)...Believes there may be the possibility it may have been Contract Engraved by someone other than the Young's...At least that's the vibe I'm getting by his comment!! Guess now we'll have to wait to see what the Research Letter has to offer...I have my fingers crossed for you...Good Luck!!

mrcvs · Sep 9, 2023

It certainly is well executed engraving and I look forward to what the factory letter states.

Why do you toss the year 1889 out there? New Model No 3 revolvers were manufactured 1878 to 1912 and shipping wasn’t in the order of serialization, so 1889 would be impossible to pinpoint unless you have other information you didn’t include in your post.

I would purchase a copy of The Standard Catalogue of Smith & Wesson, 4th edition.

Also, the History of Smith & Wesson, by Roy G Jinks.

Masterpiece · Sep 9, 2023

mrcvs said:
Why do you toss the year 1889 out there?

mrcvs,

Interesting question...Hmmm!! Can't believe I didn't think to ask him how he came to that conclusion...Hopefully he'll pass that info back to us!! Can't think of everything I guess...Ha!!-Ha!!

opoefc · Sep 9, 2023

This is high end New York style engraving. It's not factory. Probably from the shops of the Young family, or perhaps L.Nimschke's. The overlapping scrolls are indicative of Gustave Young's work, as well as Nimschke's. See examples of both in "Smith & Wesson Engraving" by Mike Kennelly, as well as the book of Nimschke's engraving pulls. Ed

colt_saa · Sep 9, 2023

crofter,
Welcome to the Forum

That is nothing I can add here, but I will repeat . . . . Send off for the Historical Letter

Then PLEASE share the Historical Foundation's report with us

mrcvs · Sep 9, 2023

opoefc said:
This is high end New York style engraving. It's not factory. Probably from the shops of the Young family, or perhaps L.Nimschke's. The overlapping scrolls are indicative of Gustave Young's work, as well as Nimschke's. See examples of both in "Smith & Wesson Engraving" by Mike Kennelly, as well as the book of Nimschke's engraving pulls. Ed

Ed,

As you have forgotten far more than I shall ever know, how do you know it’s not factory, especially being in the style or hand of Gustave Young? My gut instinct with any really good engraving is contrary to what one should gravitate towards—that is, if quality, it is likely factory. But I usually think a revolver is not factory until proven otherwise. But my odds are not good. With the lesser quality engraving, making the not factory engraved call is much easier.

opoefc · Sep 9, 2023

mrcvs (Ian), All I can say is that my gut tells me that much scroll engraving on a gun was not something done in the factory. It's just too much out of "normal" for factory engraving, not that it couldn't have been shipped in the soft to an engraver and returned to S&W for finishing, etc., but that situation usually does not turn up until the 1920-30s era, when guns were sent in the soft to Kornbrath. etc., for engraving and then back to S&W. It will be interesting to see what Roy posts, if he responds to Lee's SWCS Forum question. Ed

iby · Sep 10, 2023

interesting that the nickel has worn off but not the gold.
You're welcome for my comments.

crofter · Sep 10, 2023

opoefc said:
This is high end New York style engraving. It's not factory. Probably from the shops of the Young family, or perhaps L.Nimschke's. The overlapping scrolls are indicative of Gustave Young's work, as well as Nimschke's. See examples of both in "Smith & Wesson Engraving" by Mike Kennelly, as well as the book of Nimschke's engraving pulls. Ed

Ed
Thanks. I didn't know about the Kennelly book which is recent enough to be a great source. According to reviews, Kennelly confirms "Smith & Wesson also used independent contractors to embellish their revolvers". Sounds like "factory engraved" label is less significant than I'd thought. Reassuring.

crofter · Sep 10, 2023

mrcvs said:
Why do you toss the year 1889 out there? ...

I would purchase a copy of The Standard Catalogue of Smith & Wesson, 4th edition.

Also, the History of Smith & Wesson, by Roy G Jinks.

mrcvs
In an old thread on this site (? 2007 - can't find it now) Mr Supica listed Target Model SN 1230 (which is close to mine] as early 1889.
I have both books, but not 4th edition. I have done a lot of research into the history and provenance of the gun since I got it 22 years ago. The engraving has not been conclusively authenticated, that’s what made me post pictures here. From what you guys tell me the Historical Foundation is the place to go for a final judgment. I had thought the Foundation only dealt with more recent (digitalised) factory records but now I’m going to contact them.

RKmesa · Sep 10, 2023

Beautiful piece of work - regardless of who engraved it. I love the layout and the execution. I too am looking forward to what Roy has to say based on the historical factory records and his expertise in evaluating engraving.

Thanks for sharing!

opoefc · Sep 10, 2023

crofter, The Historical Foundation is generally useless for older antiques, like your gun, as they do not have any records beyond what will show up on the factory letter's shipping information. Ed

BMur · Sep 10, 2023

Contract Engraving

Beautiful period engraving but I agree with Ed.
We get caught up in the enormity of the engraving and immediately call it “Master engraved”.
Is this a 32-44 cal??? Or rare revolving rifle 320 cal? You have to look at the cylinder chambers. If it has a step in the chambers it’s a 32-44.

See photos:
1st photo is a “Master engraved” Smith & Wesson Model 2 Army.
Look specifically at the curves(circles). Notice they are basically perfect circles or semi-circles?

Now look at the OP’s gun engraving close up in photos 2 & 3. Notice imperfections in the semi circles of the engraving? This is common with contract engraving in bulk. It’s easy to see if you look close up.

It’s period and the coverage is full with a wonderful appeal. Master engraved period guns have very few imperfections in circles or semi circles. If you can’t see it then lay a coin against your screen and then you can visualize the master engraver vs the shop engraver cranking out engraved guns quickly.

Murph

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