I found an interesting S&W No 3 revolver. Need help determining if it’s original or not.

The revolver in question appears to be a S&W No 3 American, second model. The most common barrel length was about 7-8 inches long. The one I found has a barrel length just under 5in and it appears to be the original length or professionally/factory cut. The barrel address on long barrel revolvers typically gets interrupted by the shortening process which also does not appear the case.

The barrel address is suspicious though. It is single line and is marked + SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. U.S.A + No dates or patent data of any sort.

I have never seen a No. 3 American of any variety not have patent information stamped on it. The period after the “A” in USA (on the barrel address) is missing. This address is consistent with some examples of late production New Model 3 circa ~1900, plus or minus a few years.

My default thought is it has a shortened barrel to make it appear like a really rare short barrel factory model.

There is some slop in it when it’s closed, it can be felt and heard moving between the barrel and the frame, slightly.

There is absolutely no patent information or identifying stamps anywhere on it. The butt of the frame is serialized as is the cylinder and those match. I can't find anything suspicious about the frame. The serial number is within the correct range for a No. 3 American second model revolver. 172XX.

CASE CLOSED
Unable to obtain more information in the current circumstances.

Thanks to iby, BMur, mrcvs and
wlw-19958 for digging into this with me

Attached Images

	99bfdd67-511b-405d-928c-3b408ab50c6f.jpg (33.2 KB, 136 views)
	image000004.jpg (84.0 KB, 104 views)
	image000003.jpg (86.1 KB, 101 views)
	image000002.jpg (90.4 KB, 95 views)
	image000001.jpg (72.9 KB, 86 views)

The barrel address you show is a late production one line S&W marking.
I suspect you have a New Model #3 and not an American.
More Pictures
A 41/2" barrel would be rarity

The shape of the barrel, the butt and the frame are as that of an American Second Model to my eyes.. Here’s some other pics.

I have never seen this barrel address before on any other No 3, it's not just single line, but is also without any patent information.

Attached Images

	image000002.jpg (90.4 KB, 46 views)
	image000001.jpg (72.9 KB, 47 views)
	IMG_6263.jpg (56.7 KB, 38 views)

This is why I am concerned that it's a real action but not a genuine barrel. The barrel address is what has me suspecting it. I can't distinguish a period after the "A" in U.S.A. and there is no patent info, this would have been made in 1872-1874 which was at a high point during the revolver "patent wars". I've been pouring over photos of other American Second Models and haven't found one with a barrel address like this one.

The crown looks legit. It's definitely not a 4 inch barrel, it's just under 5, so I assume would be marketed as 4.5 in. It's possible that it was professionally cut and crowned, but again, the barrel address doesn't say "I got chopped down from 8in" to me.

The serial number is 172XX.

The cylinder is not stepped on the extractor end.

I'll post a few more pics after lunch.

Actually,
The shortest barrel listed is 5” and it’s for the 44 Russian on an American frame. The shortest barrel length listed for the 44 American is 6”.

You need to mic the bore. If it’s .440 then its’ been cut.
If it’s .430 then we are still in the game.

Also, Matching assembly numbers is a must. Do they match? Number on back of cylinder, latch, flat on barrel, under grip on frame. Usually left grip.

That barrel address stamp looks right to me. I don’t know of anyone who could fake that stamp.

Also, this has to be a Russian caliber. It can’t be a 44 American caliber. The shortest barrel listed is 6” for the 44 cal American. However, the 44 Russian is listed as being available in 5” barrel length.

Baseline is those matching assembly numbers. You have to START from there.

Murph

The American’s are often found non matching. Basically put togethers. You might have a rare 5” Model 1 44 Russian barrel plugged into a 44 American cylinder and frame. I’m looking at those cylinder throats and they look pretty big. The American was .445 and the Russian was .430….a big difference.

Murph

It's not currently with me so more measurements are unfortunately not possible at the moment.

For numbers, the cyl and the butt match.

The latch I unfortunately did not look, and I don't have a photo showing it.

Under the grip there is no stamp on the metal of the frame.

There's no stamp/markings on the barrel whatsoever, other than the address in the previous photo.

Regarding American VS Russian, the story is that it was originally chambered in 44 American and was altered to accept 44 Russian. I don't have the cartridge(s) to verify.

S.P. Fjestad's book "Blue Book of Gun Values" lists both the American 2nd Model and Russian 1st Model as available in 5.5in. Neither is listed as being available in 5in. But I believe these numbers vary based on who's book you read.

What I know for sure, is that both commonly came in either 7 or 8 inch barrels and this short would be real rare for either one.

Pic of the cylinder face/extractor is attached

Attached Images

IMG_6263.jpg (56.7 KB, 51 views)

That sounds plausible. I've just never seen this combination before, especially with the (to me) unusual address.

I know the Russian contract guns have Cyrillic barrel markings. But I don't know about the Russians that were sold in the US market.

The story is basically a guess as it was not documented well and was an auction gun.

It Quacks like an American.
Could it have returned to the factory to have the barrel shortened and then have been re marked

don't be so stingy with the photos

I have limited photos of it, don't have the revolver at this moment, sorry! I added a bunch to the first post.

What I am most concerned about is the barrel.

I like it!
I am pretty sure that the one line address stamp did not exist when your American was made so I like my previous scenario

It’s possible. Does S&W usually document that stuff?

I’m hoping someone who has seen that stamp/knows more about the dating of that stamp/barrel address can chime in.

I’ve never seen a Smith, Remington or Colt made in the 1870s that didn’t have patent information on it…

Smith & Wesson New Model No. 3 Target .38 WCF Revolver | Rock Island Auction

Yes! That's the same top strap address. Right down to the missing period on the A in USA!! Very interesting.

On the one in my photos though, you can see the "barrel bulge" in front of the hinge is the early style bulge, consistent with the idea of it being an American. And the cylinder isn't cut out to accept the rim of the 44 Russian, I believe - can you confirm this from looking at my photo of the cylinder?

Edit: This is looking more and more like a factory done barrel shortening, in the later years when they were using the "New Model" one line barrel address stamp.

If this is the case, it's worth the same or less than a standard unaltered No. 3 American, correct?

It sure looks like a Model No 3 Second Model American to me, and the barrel address looks legitimate.

Are you buying it? If so, what’s the price tag?

I would order a factory letter. And, remove stocks and look for a 2 digit month & year code. If those dates correspond to from 1920 to 1967, the SWHF may have information as to the work that might have been performed. Or, is there a star next to the serial number on the butt?

Your gun looks to be a First model Russian (44 Russian).
The First Model Russian is identical to the Americans other than the chambering but as I've said the stamp did not appear until circa 1900

Dr. Roy Jinks( Smith & Wesson historian) lists the 5” barrel available on the 1st Model Russian and not available on the 44 American.
The 1st model Russian looks identical to the earlier 44 American and parts interchange so put togethers are common.
I have no doubt that barrel is real and authentic but it cannot be a 44 American barrel. It has to be a 44 Russian barrel.
The photo of the cylinder is inconclusive due to a line visible suggesting it’s a 44 Russian caliber.

Ask the person who has the gun in hand if a 44 Mag sides in and stops about 3/4 in.

If it does then it’s a Russian cylinder NOT an American which in this case is a really good thing.

It’s too bad there isn’t a number on the barrel latch or barrel flat?

The short barrel stamps are often odd.

So right now, if the 44 Mag slides in? It’s a 1st Model Russian with rare 5” barrel.

Murph

Hi There,

I tend to agree that this revolver was returned to the factory for
refinishing and the barrel stamp was re-done at that time. When
you get it, take the grips off and look for a factory return date.


Cheers!
Webb

Hi There,



More recent study of the S&W daybook shows one 5" barrel American
being made. The American was made with 5", 5-1/2" 6" 6-1/4", 6-1/2"
and 7" barrels in addition to the standard 8" length.


Cheers!
Webb

You happen to have a close up photo of a 44 Russian Cylinder for a No 3? That would be helpful in IDing it if someone does.

I'm leaning this way too. I have yet to see photos of an early (1870s) S&W of any type having this barrel address. Only time I've seen it is on the much later examples like the "New Model 3".

The 44 American and 44 Model 1 Russian are literally intertwined in oddities and alterations that make evaluating them difficult and very often they are evaluated in error. Clearly apparent in this thread.

You can see from the photos the cylinders are identical except for the caliber. The 44 Russian excepts a 44 Mag case about 3/4 down until it hits the case stop.

The 44 American does not even begin to chamber a 44 Mag. That’s why I suggested using an EMPTY 44 Mag for the test.
It eliminates opinions.

I don’t think anyone has actually seen a legitimate 5” barrel Model 1 Russian with barrel address so the barrel address evaluation is pure opinion.

In my opinion it’s correct. The stamp is correct. It’s not faked in my opinion.

Once you have confirmed the caliber we can eliminate the 44 American from the mix.

Murph

Attached Images

	IMG_8401.jpg (90.0 KB, 23 views)
	IMG_8395.jpg (87.0 KB, 23 views)
	IMG_8394.jpg (66.5 KB, 23 views)
	IMG_8398.jpg (72.2 KB, 26 views)
	IMG_8400.jpg (55.5 KB, 24 views)

Thanks BMur for the detailed photos and comparison of fitment of the 44 mag case - very helpful.

I think we have communally conclusively established that the barrel isn’t a fraud of some sort. It’s either original or shortened at S&W which is great.

The story is that it was converted from 44 American to 44 Russian. We can find out what it is chambered in now, but sounds like if it turns out to be 44 Russian, the only way to figure out what it was originally is with letter, hey?

When you don’t have matching numbers or assembly numbers the possibilities are endless.

My 6” 1st Model Russian is in the 16,000 serial number range and it has matching assembly numbers not serial numbers on the back of the cylinder and frame.

What is extremely difficult about this variation are the oddities regarding the Russian contract guns. That’s what yours appears to be since it has a matching serial number on the cylinder and frame. The Americans also had assembly numbers like example A409 on all parts.

A factory letter won’t help since yours is an assembled gun. It screams 44 Russian and so does the barrel/ cylinder.

The story that it was an original 44 American frame is not supported by the lack of assembly numbers.

It’s possible that many of the rejected 1st Model Russians( Part of the Russian contract) were assembled and sold later but they would have matching numbers if assembled by the factory so who knows?

There were also overlapping or duplicate serial numbers between the 44 Americans and the Model 1 Russians.

So what exactly would you tell the historical dept?

It really is too bad the barrel and latch do not have numbers on them. Without those numbers it’s an assembled gun with endless possibilities

Murph

Gotcha. The barrel and the latch are unknowns presently - I don't have photos of those areas to check if they match or not. That and the 44 Mag test are next to determining its story.

We'll see what happens between me and the person whose possession it is in!

It was said to be a No. 2 revolver. I went to see it and was so weirded out by it that I did not buy it. I took a bunch of photos and explained to the seller that it's definitely not a No. 2 and its not a "normal" No. 3 either, and more research would be needed. And that I couldn't even make an offer because neither of us know what it is. I think he may have felt insulted or something, he hasn't returned my texts. Time will tell.

Ok,
Well I hope he does respond to your inquiry.
I looked again at your cylinder photo. I zoomed in and that number looks like it’s been stamped over. The photo quality is poor so who knows but it doesn’t look right to me.

I think the barrel/latch is the only real mystery here. If they respond be polite and ask for a photo of those numbers.


Murph

Attached Images

IMG_8403.jpg (28.2 KB, 31 views)

I guess if you cannot buy the gun there will be no letter.
I would buy it for the novelty if the price was not insane.
The only explanation is a factory alteration IMO

It's compressed during upload for sure, on my end it looks like the cylinder stamping is legit, the 2s are pretty deep on the top and shallow on the bottom, I think the original would show through there.

We shall see. I don't know if I will be able to procure it.

It's Canada so they are all overpriced haha.

The price of it is in line with a standard model of similar condition. If the seller gave me a sweet deal, I'd go for it at this point.

Ideally (as a keeper) I want one with better mechanics, this one is "good" to "very good" cosmetically and good mechanically, but I want one that is excellent mechanically.

I think it's unusual enough to be interesting, and I could market it well...but the condition isn't good enough for a quick sell for the price he's asking. At least I don't think so. Granted it's advertised wrong, but it's still been for sale for some 1-2 months.

For what it's worth, they are just underpriced here in the States
Good luck
Mike

Hi There,


I read something a couple of weeks ago that may pertain to the
revolver in question. I didn't want to mention it until I could con-
sult the source.

"Roy Double reported a five-inch barreled having the
marking used on later revolvers: "SMITH & WESSON,
SPRINGFIELD, MASS." The author has not observed or
otherwise verified this short marking..."

Whether this is the same revolver as the one mentioned is just
conjecture but it is an interesting coincidence.


Cheers!
Webb

We should have caught this earlier but that must be a Model 1 Russian frame since it has a safety hammer.
The American Frame did not see that transition until serial number in the 25,000 range so it’s a Russian frame.

It’s looking more and more like a matching rare gun to me.

I sure hope we aren’t going to visit regretville on this one. This fish needs to be caught!


Murph

Attached Images

IMG_8435.jpg (36.1 KB, 25 views)

Hi There,


while I agree that the OP's No. 3 is probably a Russian Model,
I disagree on the serial number range the Russian interlocking
hammer and barrel catch were incorporated into the No. 3
American line.

It gets a bit confusing because of the 500 Russian rejects that
were already numbered in the Russian contract series. These
rejects were finished, barrels re-stamped and new .44 American
cylinders installed. They were numbered in the 3K to 3.6K serial
number range (of the Russian contract series). And sold on the
commercial market.

The regular No. 3 American was in the 6.5K to 6.9K serial number
range when the switchover took place and was completed by about
serial number 7,000.

Now, the No. 3 American in .44 RF was a different story. S&W
had lots of the non-interlocking RF hammers and decided to use
them. So the RF No. 3 American didn't switch over to the inter-
locking hammer and barrel catch until after 26K range. These
RF Americans also were still using the older hammer controlled
cylinder stop.


Cheers!
Webb

Webb
I agree with you on the hammers.
My 1st model Russian 19,xxx has the interlock.
I would also like to point out that the OP says the barrel is 4 1/2 not 5.
P.S. This thread is fun

I must know the context of this excerpt. Can you let me know what book this is from?

BMur - thanks for this tidbit. Supica's 2006 edition S&W catalog states that even first model Americans have half cock and full cock both. The second model in the serial range that this one is in also have the interlocking hammer. Supica also does not list a 5in barrel for the Russian models, typically the Russian commercially sold models will have the "Russian" stamp on the barrel too if made for commercial market, right?

Edit: Going with the Russian theory, I think it could also be a first model Russian commercial gun, sold in the US, that was then cut down and re-stamped with the "New Model" type barrel address. Again, referring to Supica, he makes mention that there was a Russian Rejects program where around 500 units were shipped back to the states, russian markings were removed and they were re-labeled and sold commercially in the states. But 6in is the shortest barrel he mentions for Russian contract first models.

And we know it's not a Russian contract gun since there are no markings indicating this, no tpyical Cyrillic or eagle markings.

I still can't get past the barrel address that only seems to show up on New Model 3 guns. I will wait for an update below on the context of the excerpt regarding that address.


I'm sure I can obtain this piece if I wanted to bad enough - just get someone else to buy it if he is to embarrassed to talk to me.

But I unfortunately don't have the money to get trigger-happy and buy an unknown for the same price as a verified original model. And I don't have the luxury of enthusiast friends to do a group buy study project on it lol.

The barrel is just under 5in, I rounded down which was silly, I should have been more clear in my original post. I updated it.

I'm not sure how precise the advertised barrel lengths were.

I'm having fun too you guys are true enthusiasts. It's a treat.

Opps!
My mistake on the safety hammer. Happens every time I post from memory.

I think all we need at this point are the numbers. Good photos of the barrel/latch numbers.

Without them I think we’ve reached a dead end.

Oh, barrel lengths are definitely not an exact science. Antique Smith & Wesson revolvers often see variance of up to 1/4”.

I like the theory that this might be a late assembled gun using up old stock. Very possible.

Murph

The old stock parts is an interesting idea. Was the American known to be shipped into the late 1890s? Cause this thing definitely has an old model barrel shape. Would have had to be made much earlier than stamped.

There are many examples of late assembly guns using obsolete parts from years earlier. Even years after a model was discontinued.
The issue usually is the produced numbers are very low and difficult to authenticate.

Surplus parts and frames can remain for a long time before being used/sold. More often than not they are difficult to prove authentic due to no records remaining.

In my opinion the most intriguing feature is that barrel address. It’s right but just way after that barrel was manufactured. Basically it supports the late assembly theory.

I have never seen a refurbished gun from the factory receive a late stamp. I have seen the factory replace a damaged barrel with a 30 year old barrel lacking caliber stamp so they definitely had old parts laying around for decades!

I think this was a late assembly that’s why it has the late stamp. The stamp to me screams special order short barrel.

Let’s assume all the numbers match. It still might not show up in the remaining records since it was a very late shipment.

Lots of possibilities. Especially with the Russian contract guns. There were lots of returns so the factory had a lot of old parts laying around from that contract. Pretty much a no brainer that parts and frames would be in stock for a long time.

If the numbers match it’s a keeper.

Murph

I had a few mins between projects and did some researching.
Here is a very interesting short barrel 2nd issue American.
Notice it has a S&W logo on the right side frame?
That stamp didn’t happen until 1896ish.

I wonder if the OP’s short barrel has the logo stamp?

That stamp has no business being on that American frame!

Unless? It left the factory that way.

Murph

Attached Images

	IMG_8440.jpg (33.3 KB, 20 views)
	IMG_8439.jpg (31.2 KB, 20 views)

Hi There,

Very interesting. The one in your photos has an even shorter barrel it looks like.

That stamp is not on this one - there's definitely no marks on the exposed part of the frame other than the serial. The guy whose possession its in says no marks on the metal under the grips either - but I haven't seen under them myself to verify.

That's good info, I think this is a decent possibility. I'm so intrigued by this, I'm almost tempted to pony up and pay S&WHF to look into it.

Thanks for sharing. I don't have that one and neither does Open Library....it's on the list now though!

The re-work markings (month/year) on the grip frame may well not have been in use at the time this gun was altered.
Hopefully someone will chime in on this subject

I’m letting this one go.

To the guys who have been working on it with me: the seller is quite unmotivated/uninterested. I tried to negotiate a bit (still allowing for a healthy profit for him) and he was not into that either. I found a nice example New Model S/A on the US side of the border for the same price that seems much better both mechanically and cosmetically. We will see what it’s like when it arrives.