CASE CLOSED Is this No 3 revolver genuine?

Incendiary · Feb 25, 2024

I found an interesting S&W No 3 revolver. Need help determining if it’s original or not.

The revolver in question appears to be a S&W No 3 American, second model. The most common barrel length was about 7-8 inches long. The one I found has a barrel length just under 5in and it appears to be the original length or professionally/factory cut. The barrel address on long barrel revolvers typically gets interrupted by the shortening process which also does not appear the case.

The barrel address is suspicious though. It is single line and is marked + SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. U.S.A + No dates or patent data of any sort.

I have never seen a No. 3 American of any variety not have patent information stamped on it. The period after the “A” in USA (on the barrel address) is missing. This address is consistent with some examples of late production New Model 3 circa ~1900, plus or minus a few years.

My default thought is it has a shortened barrel to make it appear like a really rare short barrel factory model.

There is some slop in it when it’s closed, it can be felt and heard moving between the barrel and the frame, slightly.

There is absolutely no patent information or identifying stamps anywhere on it. The butt of the frame is serialized as is the cylinder and those match. I can't find anything suspicious about the frame. The serial number is within the correct range for a No. 3 American second model revolver. 172XX.

CASE CLOSED
Unable to obtain more information in the current circumstances.

Thanks to iby, BMur, mrcvs and
wlw-19958 for digging into this with me

iby · Feb 25, 2024

The barrel address you show is a late production one line S&W marking.
I suspect you have a New Model #3 and not an American.
More Pictures
A 41/2" barrel would be rarity

Incendiary · Feb 25, 2024

iby said:
The barrel address you show is a late production one line S&W marking.
I suspect you have a New Model #3 and not an American.
More Pictures
A 41/2" barrel would be rarity

The shape of the barrel, the butt and the frame are as that of an American Second Model to my eyes.. Here’s some other pics.

I have never seen this barrel address before on any other No 3, it's not just single line, but is also without any patent information.

Incendiary · Feb 25, 2024

BMur said:
That looks like a rare puppy to me.

Very few were made with the short barrel. I have a 6” “Russian Model” that is 100% legit. Your’s looks like it might be the ultra rare 4”?

This is why I am concerned that it's a real action but not a genuine barrel. The barrel address is what has me suspecting it. I can't distinguish a period after the "A" in U.S.A. and there is no patent info, this would have been made in 1872-1874 which was at a high point during the revolver "patent wars". I've been pouring over photos of other American Second Models and haven't found one with a barrel address like this one.

The crown looks legit. It's definitely not a 4 inch barrel, it's just under 5, so I assume would be marketed as 4.5 in. It's possible that it was professionally cut and crowned, but again, the barrel address doesn't say "I got chopped down from 8in" to me.

The serial number is 172XX.

The cylinder is not stepped on the extractor end.

I'll post a few more pics after lunch.

BMur · Feb 25, 2024

5” barrel

Actually,
The shortest barrel listed is 5” and it’s for the 44 Russian on an American frame. The shortest barrel length listed for the 44 American is 6”.

You need to mic the bore. If it’s .440 then its’ been cut.
If it’s .430 then we are still in the game.

Also, Matching assembly numbers is a must. Do they match? Number on back of cylinder, latch, flat on barrel, under grip on frame. Usually left grip.

That barrel address stamp looks right to me. I don’t know of anyone who could fake that stamp.

Also, this has to be a Russian caliber. It can’t be a 44 American caliber. The shortest barrel listed is 6” for the 44 cal American. However, the 44 Russian is listed as being available in 5” barrel length.

Baseline is those matching assembly numbers. You have to START from there.

Murph

BMur · Feb 25, 2024

Put together?

The American’s are often found non matching. Basically put togethers. You might have a rare 5” Model 1 44 Russian barrel plugged into a 44 American cylinder and frame. I’m looking at those cylinder throats and they look pretty big. The American was .445 and the Russian was .430….a big difference.

Murph

Incendiary · Feb 25, 2024

BMur said:
Actually,
The shortest barrel listed is 5” and it’s for the 44 Russian on an American frame. The shortest barrel length listed for the 44 American is 6”.

You need to mic the bore. If it’s .440 then its’ been cut.
If it’s .430 then we are still in the game.

Also, Matching assembly numbers is a must. Do they match? Number on back of cylinder, latch, flat on barrel, under grip on frame. Usually left grip.

That barrel address stamp looks right to me. I don’t know of anyone who could fake that stamp.

Also, this has to be a Russian caliber. It can’t be a 44 American caliber. The shortest barrel listed is 6” for the 44 cal American. However, the 44 Russian is listed as being available in 5” barrel length.

Baseline is those matching assembly numbers. You have to START from there.

Murph

It's not currently with me so more measurements are unfortunately not possible at the moment.

For numbers, the cyl and the butt match.

The latch I unfortunately did not look, and I don't have a photo showing it.

Under the grip there is no stamp on the metal of the frame.

There's no stamp/markings on the barrel whatsoever, other than the address in the previous photo.

Regarding American VS Russian, the story is that it was originally chambered in 44 American and was altered to accept 44 Russian. I don't have the cartridge(s) to verify.

S.P. Fjestad's book "Blue Book of Gun Values" lists both the American 2nd Model and Russian 1st Model as available in 5.5in. Neither is listed as being available in 5in. But I believe these numbers vary based on who's book you read.

What I know for sure, is that both commonly came in either 7 or 8 inch barrels and this short would be real rare for either one.

Incendiary · Feb 25, 2024

Pic of the cylinder face/extractor is attached

Incendiary · Feb 25, 2024

BMur said:
The American’s are often found non matching. Basically put togethers. You might have a rare 5” Model 1 44 Russian barrel plugged into a 44 American cylinder and frame. I’m looking at those cylinder throats and they look pretty big. The American was .445 and the Russian was .430….a big difference.

Murph

That sounds plausible. I've just never seen this combination before, especially with the (to me) unusual address.

I know the Russian contract guns have Cyrillic barrel markings. But I don't know about the Russians that were sold in the US market.

The story is basically a guess as it was not documented well and was an auction gun.

iby · Feb 25, 2024

It Quacks like an American.
Could it have returned to the factory to have the barrel shortened and then have been re marked

iby · Feb 25, 2024

Incendiary said:
The shape of the barrel, the butt and the frame are as that of an American Second Model to my eyes.. Here’s some other pics.

I have never seen this barrel address before on any other No 3, it's not just single line, but is also without any patent information.

don't be so stingy with the photos

Incendiary · Feb 25, 2024

iby said:
don't be so stingy with the photos

I have limited photos of it, don't have the revolver at this moment, sorry! I added a bunch to the first post.

What I am most concerned about is the barrel.

iby · Feb 25, 2024

I like it!
I am pretty sure that the one line address stamp did not exist when your American was made so I like my previous scenario

Incendiary · Feb 25, 2024

iby said:
It Quacks like an American.
Could it have returned to the factory to have the barrel shortened and then have been re marked

I am pretty sure that the one line address stamp did not exist when your American was made so I like my previous scenario

It’s possible. Does S&W usually document that stuff?

I’m hoping someone who has seen that stamp/knows more about the dating of that stamp/barrel address can chime in.

I’ve never seen a Smith, Remington or Colt made in the 1870s that didn’t have patent information on it…

iby · Feb 25, 2024

an example

Smith & Wesson New Model No. 3 Target .38 WCF Revolver | Rock Island Auction

Incendiary · Feb 25, 2024

iby said:
Smith & Wesson New Model No. 3 Target .38 WCF Revolver | Rock Island Auction

Yes! That's the same top strap address. Right down to the missing period on the A in USA!! Very interesting.

On the one in my photos though, you can see the "barrel bulge" in front of the hinge is the early style bulge, consistent with the idea of it being an American. And the cylinder isn't cut out to accept the rim of the 44 Russian, I believe - can you confirm this from looking at my photo of the cylinder?

Edit: This is looking more and more like a factory done barrel shortening, in the later years when they were using the "New Model" one line barrel address stamp.

If this is the case, it's worth the same or less than a standard unaltered No. 3 American, correct?

mrcvs · Feb 25, 2024

It sure looks like a Model No 3 Second Model American to me, and the barrel address looks legitimate.

Are you buying it? If so, what’s the price tag?

I would order a factory letter. And, remove stocks and look for a 2 digit month & year code. If those dates correspond to from 1920 to 1967, the SWHF may have information as to the work that might have been performed. Or, is there a star next to the serial number on the butt?

iby · Feb 25, 2024

Your gun looks to be a First model Russian (44 Russian).
The First Model Russian is identical to the Americans other than the chambering but as I've said the stamp did not appear until circa 1900

BMur · Feb 25, 2024

Barrel

Dr. Roy Jinks( Smith & Wesson historian) lists the 5” barrel available on the 1st Model Russian and not available on the 44 American.
The 1st model Russian looks identical to the earlier 44 American and parts interchange so put togethers are common.
I have no doubt that barrel is real and authentic but it cannot be a 44 American barrel. It has to be a 44 Russian barrel.
The photo of the cylinder is inconclusive due to a line visible suggesting it’s a 44 Russian caliber.

Ask the person who has the gun in hand if a 44 Mag sides in and stops about 3/4 in.

If it does then it’s a Russian cylinder NOT an American which in this case is a really good thing.

It’s too bad there isn’t a number on the barrel latch or barrel flat?

The short barrel stamps are often odd.

So right now, if the 44 Mag slides in? It’s a 1st Model Russian with rare 5” barrel.

Murph

wlw-19958 · Feb 25, 2024

Hi There,

iby said:
It Quacks like an American.
Could it have returned to the factory to have the barrel shortened and then have been re marked

I tend to agree that this revolver was returned to the factory for
refinishing and the barrel stamp was re-done at that time. When
you get it, take the grips off and look for a factory return date.

Cheers!
Webb

CASE CLOSED Is this No 3 revolver genuine?

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