Smith & Wesson .38 SA Mexican Model - Antique or C&R?

I can't seem to find a solid answer for this. Is the spur trigger .38 Single Action Mexican Model considered antique? I've seen many sold as antiques, some as C&R. Made from 1891-1911, however some sources claim all spur trigger and/or top break .38 frames were made prior to 1899 and are antique. Does anyone know which it is? Thanks!

There is a written agreement between S&W and "the Feds" which stipulates certain "Antiques" which were made/assembled into the 20th century are deemed to be classified as "Antiques"--NM #3's among them. The bad news is I've just told you all I know about it.

My best suggestion at this time is to contact the SWHF (Bill Cross or Don Mundell). They can speak with authority-----and likely can post a copy of the agreement. The Historical Foundation has their own section here (on this forum) which simplifies your task. Ask now, and likely have a response before nightfall.

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, the frames are considered to be "firearms", and I believe the gist of the agreement is to the effect the frames of all those affected were made prior to the magic date---whatever it is (1898?).

antique S&W

I copied this from a previous post ...Somewhere
3rd Model 38 SA

At least two problems here. First, what you see is not much help unless you know that the old name for this model was No. 2, 3rd Issue, which contains the M91, or 38 Mexican Model. You will not find this information in the BATF literature and certainly the definition of an antique does not help. Second, the Mexican Model was in the serial number range of the Model 1891, 3rd Issue.

Bottom line is all derivations of the Model 1891 are antiques, as stated by Roy Jinks and accepted by the BATF. All frames were manufactured, serial numbered and logged before 1899. Of course, assembly and sales continued into the early 1900s.

glowe said:

At least two problems here. Second, the Mexican Model has its own serial number range, so is not contained in the Model 1891, 3rd Issue serial number range.
.

Click to expand...

Glowe,
Where did you get this information.
Smith & Wesson 1857-1945 Neal & Jinks
.38 Single Action Mexican Model
“This model was numbered in the same series with the .38 Single Action Third Model and the First Model Single Shot.”

Dave

glowe said:

At least two problems here. First, what you see is not much help unless you know that the old name for this model was No. 2, 3rd Issue, which contains the M91, or 38 Mexican Model. You will not find this information in the BATF literature and certainly the definition of an antique does not help. Second, the Mexican Model has its own serial number range, so is not contained in the Model 1891, 3rd Issue serial number range.

Bottom line is all derivations of the Model 1891 are antiques, as stated by Roy Jinks and accepted by the BATF. All frames were manufactured, serial numbered and logged before 1899. Of course, assembly and sales continued into the early 1900s.

Click to expand...

Gee.... Wish I'd said that

The picture that iby posted is one I posted a while back, It has my granite kitchen countertops in the background. Its from the Smith & Wesson Collectors Association book, Twenty~Fifth Anniversary printing, of The S&W Journals. Its Book 1 page 94. Its a letter from Roy Jinks to Mr Westenberger of the ATF on August 7, 1972 outlining what guns have frames manufactured prior to 1899 per the first paragraph of the letter.

glowe is correct in what he says except the Mexican Model does not have its own serial number range. The serial numbers are mixed in with the single shots and the revolvers with curved triggers and trigger guards. The frames are the same; No. 2, 3rd Issue; weather it had a single shot barrel attached or a revolver barrel and cylinder. Same if it has a curved trigger guard and a curved trigger, or a spur trigger guard and spur trigger. It is easy to remove the trigger and guard or each and interchange them.

Here are factory original parts for the curved trigger guard and curved trigger along with the spur trigger guard and spur trigger. They can easily be installed in either frame. The hammers were also different.

I purchased these from the late Ed Cornett, one of the nicest guys you will ever converse with. I miss his wisdom he shared will all who visited here.

After Market kits

There were also after market kits to fabricate Mexican Models. It’s been many years since I’ve seen one but it’s one of the reasons why I never purchased one for my collection.

Murph

Sorry, Neal & Jinks state that the 38 Single Action Mexican Model was made in serial number range 1-28,107, but I misspoke that it was its own serial number range.

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Nuances of the .38 SA, Mexican Model: The kit sold by S&W consisted of the spur trigger only. The flat-sided hammer was not included in the kit. If one were to install the trigger kit, the hammer would be the flanged type of hammer of the Model of '91 and not the Mexican, flat-sided hammer. If one were to install the flat-sided hammer from either the 1st or 2nd Model .38 SA, then the "Mexican put-together" revolver would have the half cock notch which the true Mexican Model does not have.

Here's a photo of the three hammers and the trigger guards. The hammer on the left is a true Mexican Model (rebounding, no half cock notch), the middle is a Model of '91 and the right is a 1st or 2nd Model .38 SA (note the half cock notch).

It seems like the older I get, the dumber I become!

Then again, while I had Model of '91 target revolver, and every possible type of .22 Single Shot, I never laid eyes on a Mexcian Model. I'd read about them, perhaps not enough; but my excuse for such abysmal ignorance is they didn't come with target sights-----or I'm pretty sure they didn't. God forbid I find out different, 'cause it's too late now!

Ralph Tremaine

Thanks for posting your pictures Mike. It looks like my flat sided hammer is from the earlier 1st or 2nd model single actions, not the Mexican

At the last symposium in Glendale, Arizona, I displayed my .38 SA Mexican and had this handout, where Robert Neal in a 1990 S&WCA Journal article speaks of the rarity of this model.

Dave

Smith & Wesson
.38 Single Action Mexican Model
Model No. 2 Mexican Model
Model 1880

This example with serial number 18691 was shipped from the Smith & Wesson factory on October 19, 1899 and delivered to Max Fiedler, Russian Agent, in St. Petersburg, Russia. In the Factory Letter, Roy Jinks states, “Your revolver is one of the original Mexican Models.”

This is a blued example with the serial number 18691 on the butt with only the 18 showing because the factory lanyard ring is installed through the serial number, hence the factory re-stamped the serial number on the left side of the frame under the left grip. 18691 is also stamped on the cylinder, the barrel, barrel latch and scratched on the inside of the right grip panel. It has a 4” barrel, round blade front sight inserted and pinned in the barrel rib. The rear sight is a U notch cut in the raised barrel catch stop. The hammer is equipped with a rebounding safety and full cock notch only, the half cock being omitted. The thumb piece is straight-sided rather than flanged. The spur trigger is the narrow .197 inch variation compared to the wide .255 variation. In the S&WCA Fall 2010 Journal, an article by Robert J. Neal titled “My Mexican Model” he states that the narrow trigger is rare.

This is a rare model manufactured by Smith & Wesson. In Smith & Wesson 1857-1945 by Robert J. Neal and Roy G. Jinks it states, “Total production of this model is unknown but is estimated to be very small, with perhaps 2,000 or few being made.
In the S&WCA Journal Volume 24, Number 2 - Summer 1990, Robert J. Neal states in his “The Mexican, A S&W Mystery Model”, “These guns were serial with the Model 1891, as were the First model Single Shots. This range was 1-28107. An estimated 1500 of these serials were assigned to the Single Shots. The author would guess, and I emphasize that it is only that, perhaps 1000 Mexican Models were made. Of that number, I feel sure no more than 50 are in collections in this country.”
“As a matter of fact, the model is so rare that most collectors have never seen one except in photographs.”
He concludes his article with, “So, in summary, we have described a very rare five shot revolver which was made in two variations, with four lengths of barrel, and two standard finishes. Target grips and sights were also available. There are a few very specialized collectors who will pick a particular model and try to acquire one example of each combination of variation available. Do not try it with this revolver, as all the combinations would make up more guns than are known to to be available in this country.”

I had a Mexican Model in my display of "Rare, Scarce or Uncommon Smith & Wesson Tip-up and Top-Break Revolvers" at Glendale. I searched for a long time before I purchased a Mexican Model. Beside the items to look for, listed above, take the time to turn the gun over and look at the finish on the trigger kit and compare it to the finish of the revolver. I passed up several 'kit' guns because the trigger kit was shiny new whereas the revolver finish was somewhat dull. Beware of fakes!

Hi There,


I was going to bring up the fact that S&W made conversion kits
and how the Fraternity viewed these. IIRC, these were offered
by the Factory to dealers to convert the 1891 to a spur trigger
because that type of trigger was still very popular "south-of-
the-border."


Cheers!
Webb

Letter

I agree with Mike. Beware of fakes. Make sure it comes with a letter that clearly confirms it’s an original Mexican model. The older the letter the better.
There was a time when there were a lot of fakes out there. I don’t think they took to flight (they are still out there) and now with the internet and folks posting factory letters? You tell me.

Murph