The 822nd Smith & Wesson revolver ever manufactured…

mrcvs · #1 04-09-2024, 06:08 AM

…or at least serialized. From Mike Helms’ excellent site:

Model 1 First Issue Variabts:

“2nd Variant (serial numbers 214 to 1,130): Bayonet latch, and the recoil shield is attached to the frame by a screw and a threaded insert.”

Smith & Wesson Model 1 Variants - Michael Helms

Of the first 1000 Smith & Wesson revolvers manufactured, 45 are known to exist, and this is 36th of these 45. Surely, the survival rate has to be greater than 4.5%, so I think many await discovery.

mrcvs · #2 04-09-2024, 06:10 AM

And more photographs…

mrcvs · #3 04-09-2024, 06:21 AM

And one more photograph of the barrel and the Littlefield, Parsons & Company box, as manufactured in Florence, Massachusetts 1858 to 1862.

Dr Jinks states my revolver shipped September of 1858. Smith & Wesson began purchasing these boxes, now described as “mud” and not gutta percha nor hard rubber, in August of 1858. I’m guessing the assemblage, revolver & box, was shipped to Smith & Wesson’s sole distributor at the time, J W Storrs.

The question is, do I have A box, or THE box? Mine is the Pistol box, and not the Stand of Flags box. My understanding is the Stand of Flags box is earlier than the Pistol box. But how much earlier? A month? Meaning it could be THE box. Or months or years later?

And, some, or is it all, of the very early boxes were brown. And mine is black. Too early for black, or not? And I think the jury is still out as to whether or not the brown boxes are original black boxes that have faded from exposure to heat and/or light. However, I think most consider the brown boxes to be a design variation, and not age or elemental changes created over time.

JSR III · #4 04-09-2024, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Of the first 1000 Smith & Wesson revolvers manufactured, 45 are known to exist,

I have always been intrigued by this statement here on the forum. Known to exist by those of us that frequent boards like this or go to gun shows or is it the gun collecting fraternity as a whole???

There are something like 340 million people in the US as of today and those that track this information estimate that about 20% are under 15, so lets just say that perhaps 75% are adults with gun owning ability. That is roughly 255 million adult people.

So I firmly believe that there remains the possibility of more sock drawers out there holding treasures that we are totally unaware of or at least that is my hope.

As the baby boomers age and reach that wonderful period between social security and death, I firmly believe that more of these relics may surface as they are not as popular with the younger generation that is more drawn to the black plastic guns that shoot 15 or more rounds.

There are hundreds of thousands of homes out there that have never frequented a gun forum like this so who knows. (And that only considers sock drawers in the US)

As far as the op's gun is concerned, that is a truly remarkable package with a beautiful box included. One can only hope and dream to find something like that but that to me is the essence of collecting.......

mrcvs · #5 04-09-2024, 07:58 AM

The statement has been made in the past that all original Colt Walkers that exist have all surfaced and none others will turn up. I knew that to be a ludicrous statement when I heard or read it decades ago, and as I have grown older and wiser, it sounds even more ridiculous today.

glowe · #6 04-09-2024, 10:54 AM

Walker researchers pretty much agree on the following numbers of survivors. Of the 1,000 made, it has been found that 239 exploded while in service, leaving 761. About 150 to 200 examples have been found, or 20% of original production are known to exist. These are very valuable revolvers today and I am sure that just about all avenues have been exhausted to find just about the last Colt Walker in existence.

I have often thought about survival rates of firearms and decided it depends on the longevity of any particular model, mechanical failures, explosions, sturdiness, and versatility of the model. The early Model 1 revolvers were anything but sturdy. With its 2 piece hammer issues and overall fragility, that alone must have accounted for the loss of many guns. Add to that, explosions would have also taken their share of guns. These little revolvers were around for a long time, but by the early 1900s, 22 Shorts were no longer the anemic cartridge of the early days and would have made short work of such weak frame guns as the Model 1. Lastly, let's face it, the Model 1 was totally replaced well before 1900 with the introduction of many brands of 22 revolvers that were much easier to load, much stronger frames and could handle much more powerful ammunition. Lastly, WWI & WWII saw a great push to turn in anything made of brass and other valuable metals to help the war effort, resulting in many guns being melted down.

Logistics may also be a factor. It is not known how many of these revolvers went abroad, but likely some did, mostly to Europe where the 22 Parlor Pistol was immensely popular. Those examples were likely all lost due to the many wars throughout Europe. The Civil War took lots of Model 1 revolvers to war and being small and relatively ineffective, many were likely lost or discarded during the war.

So what does this all mean? As for these early Model 1 revolvers, it likely that the majority of them disappeared, but using what is known about the Colt Walker, 20%-25% survival is not a total shot in the dark.

BMur · #7 04-09-2024, 11:33 AM

There is no doubt that more exist. Just hiding behind a wall, mantle, attic, basement, etc.

However, the number must be small. Referring to military records its absolutely amazing how many guns were lost, stolen, gambled off, dropped in a privy, fallen out of a pocket, off horseback, a buggy ride loss, etc.

Records account for as much as 60% loss over time. The earlier the time period the higher the loss rate due to the difficulty to simply stay alive back then.

Possibilities are endless but they mostly represent loss, not survival.

Murph

Patbar · #8 04-09-2024, 12:23 PM

Oh boy mrcvs, I wouln't like to have a heart attack, but after your beautifully engraved second issue, I hope I will escape it !!

Borderboss · #9 04-09-2024, 12:38 PM

A little bit of a thread drift here. I always look at the posts in the Antiques forum because I'm fascinated by the early guns, even though I don't collect them.

I always ask myself: How was this gun successful? It's a small gun in a largely ineffective caliber. Was the fact that the self-contained cartridge was so new and innovative that a little .22 rimfire was more desirable than a .36 or .44 caliber "muzzleloader" revolver? I just find it pretty interesting.

mmaher94087 · #10 04-09-2024, 01:37 PM

A few comments. My understanding is that these cases were not purchased by S&W but were purchased by the distributor. The cases were produced at the time the Model 1, 2nd Issue (flat-sided frame) revolvers were being manufactured. The distributor paired the case with the revolvers, often the earlier guns were cased or engraved to help with their sales.

From the Samuel Peck patent (No 11758, ca. 1852): The cases were an early type of thermoplastic made of shellac ("... resinous secretion (lac) of an insect...") and wood fiber... "... dyed to the color that may be desired...". Littlefield Parsons heated the steel dies and this mixture (around 325 degrees F.) and pressed the soft mass into the mold. "Mechanical presses were first used; later hydraulic pressure was substituted.".

iby · #11 04-09-2024, 01:48 PM

The case is marked "Manufactured only by Smith & Wesson"

wlw-19958 · #12 04-09-2024, 03:22 PM

Hi There,

Quote:

Originally Posted by iby

The case is marked "Manufactured only by Smith & Wesson"

Ahem, that refers to the contents of the box.

Cheers!
Webb

mrcvs · #13 04-09-2024, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmaher94087

A few comments. My understanding is that these cases were not purchased by S&W but were purchased by the distributor. The cases were produced at the time the Model 1, 2nd Issue (flat-sided frame) revolvers were being manufactured. The distributor paired the case with the revolvers, often the earlier guns were cased or engraved to help with their sales.

From the Samuel Peck patent (No 11758, ca. 1852): The cases were an early type of thermoplastic made of shellac ("... resinous secretion (lac) of an insect...") and wood fiber... "... dyed to the color that may be desired...". Littlefield Parsons heated the steel dies and this mixture (around 325 degrees F.) and pressed the soft mass into the mold. "Mechanical presses were first used; later hydraulic pressure was substituted.".

I am not sure if these boxes weren’t purchased by Smith & Wesson and shipped to the distributor with the revolver. Florence, Massachusetts, the town where these boxes were manufactured by Littlefield, Parsons & Company, is much closer to Springfield, Massachusetts than is J W Storrs, this company being located in NYC.

mrcvs · #14 04-09-2024, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

Walker researchers pretty much agree on the following numbers of survivors. Of the 1,000 made, it has been found that 239 exploded while in service, leaving 761. About 150 to 200 examples have been found, or 20% of original production are known to exist. These are very valuable revolvers today and I am sure that just about all avenues have been exhausted to find just about the last Colt Walker in existence.

I have often thought about survival rates of firearms and decided it depends on the longevity of any particular model, mechanical failures, explosions, sturdiness, and versatility of the model. The early Model 1 revolvers were anything but sturdy. With its 2 piece hammer issues and overall fragility, that alone must have accounted for the loss of many guns. Add to that, explosions would have also taken their share of guns. These little revolvers were around for a long time, but by the early 1900s, 22 Shorts were no longer the anemic cartridge of the early days and would have made short work of such weak frame guns as the Model 1. Lastly, let's face it, the Model 1 was totally replaced well before 1900 with the introduction of many brands of 22 revolvers that were much easier to load, much stronger frames and could handle much more powerful ammunition. Lastly, WWI & WWII saw a great push to turn in anything made of brass and other valuable metals to help the war effort, resulting in many guns being melted down.

Logistics may also be a factor. It is not known how many of these revolvers went abroad, but likely some did, mostly to Europe where the 22 Parlor Pistol was immensely popular. Those examples were likely all lost due to the many wars throughout Europe. The Civil War took lots of Model 1 revolvers to war and being small and relatively ineffective, many were likely lost or discarded during the war.

So what does this all mean? As for these early Model 1 revolvers, it likely that the majority of them disappeared, but using what is known about the Colt Walker, 20%-25% survival is not a total shot in the dark.

The total production of Model 1 First Issue revolvers relative to the total number of firearms out there is very small. Likewise, the production of Colt Walker revolvers relative to all firearms out there is very small. But this doesn’t mean that newly surfaced examples of each might not surface, just in proportion to the total number manufactured minus losses over time, this being statistically similar to the survival rate of other firearms produced during the antebellum period.

There’s a gun shop two or three miles away from me on a major route, they advertise somewhat consistently, and there’s a sign out front stating “we pay cash for guns”. Lots of junk on the shelves of little interest. One day the owner wasn’t in and I asked the man manning the counter if nice stuff walks in here ever? The stock doesn’t reflect this. His response “almost daily”. Further discussion reveals it’s stuff from local estates, folks inheriting antique firearms they might almost pay to get rid of. They have no idea what firearms they have. Statistically, a Colt Walker or early Model 1 Smith & Wesson might show up in the proportion they exist relative to all other typical estate firearms out there. Very rarely, but certainly not impossible. Of course, none of this good stuff at my local gun shop makes it to the shelves. It’s sold at higher dollar venues.

Most folks don’t know what they have. You could put an exhibition grade Smith & Wesson revolver in my brother in law’s hands and he would fail to recognize the true work of art it is, instead worrying about is it loaded, is it going to injure me, and why are folks even allowed to own firearms in this day and age?

Ivan the Butcher · #15 04-09-2024, 06:24 PM

In the last 20 to 25 years, I have heard believable stories for 7 "Unknown" walkers surfacing! They will remain unknown due to the harassment the owners of these guns receive from rude "Collectors."

I'm sure that the number of "Unreported" items is higher than reported items because of "NUNYUR" (slang for none of your business!)

Ivan

wlw-19958 · #16 04-09-2024, 06:57 PM

Hi There,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan the Butcher

I'm sure that the number of "Unreported" items is higher than reported items because of "NUNYUR" (slang for none of your business!)

Ivan

I've always used "NOYB."

Cheers!
Webb

mmaher94087 · #17 04-09-2024, 09:07 PM

"I am not sure if these boxes weren’t purchased by Smith & Wesson and shipped...". I have never seen a 'letter' that confirms that a Littlefield Parsons case was shipped to, and along with, a revolver from Smith & Wesson.

As far as another Model 1 being yet to be discovered; in 2019, I pulled a Model 1, 1st Issue, 1st type (SN 1-213) out of the weeds of Montanna. Until then only 14 were known to exist. It was a family pass-down and was unknown until then. The 'letter' also indicated that the revolver was listed in the S&W ledger as "Plate Pistol" prior to being shipped to Storrs. in NY. This is an indication that S&W sent the plating to Adam's plating prior to delivery to Storrs. S&W did not have plating facilities at that time and the (then) accepted belief was that all plated Model 1's were plated by the distributor. Here's a photo.