I was just curious as to approximately when, date of mfg wise, a mechanically sound top break small caliber SW revolver would be considered safe to fire with current .32SW or .38SW factory rounds?

I've been looking at some old top breaks as I've been curious about obtaining one. I'd like to have one that I can actually fire, as I'm not terribly interested in a looker. I had one years ago made around 1909ish, but I was wondering if early ones might also be safe to fire? My great grandmother kept an Iver Johnson around, but I thought I might have better luck getting an actual Smith and Wesson top break.

I was just curious as to approximately when, date of mfg wise, a mechanically sound top break small caliber SW revolver would be considered safe to fire with current .32SW or .38SW factory rounds?

I've been looking at some old top breaks as I've been curious about obtaining one. I'd like to have one that I can actually fire, as I'm not terribly interested in a looker. I had one years ago made around 1909ish, but I was wondering if early ones might also be safe to fire? My great grandmother kept an Iver Johnson around, but I thought I might have better luck getting an actual Smith and Wesson top break.

Current .32 and .38 factory S&W ammo is essentially the same low-pressure stuff it always was -- largely, I suspect, in deference to those old top-breaks. A friend owns an old Iver Johnson .32 and an old S&W .38, both in near as-new condition, which he shoots from time to time with no problems at all. The only factor I might be concerned about with similar specimens would be parts breakage -- might be pretty hard to impossible to fix.

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Pisgah

I think you are smarter going with a S&W "top break".

Yes, I know plenty of folks shoot I.J.s and H & R's on a fairly regular basis, especially with B.P. in "cowboy events".

While this is certainly not "scientific", I once blew up a .32 S&W H & R to prove a point to my wife's arrogant uncle. He claimed .32 acp was safe to fire in it, I said NO. Gun was a "beater", and we tied to to a fence and pulled a string attached to the old hammerless trigger. It exploded! Standard W-W .32 acp fmj round.

Never have tried this, nor would I with a top break S&W, or a Hopkins Allen or Merwin Hulbert.

Keith mentions a couple of "bad experiences" using factory loads in I. J.s etc. in "Sixguns".

I have a 4th model .38 S&W Top Break, and have had NO trouble using MILD smokeless loads with 148 gr. HBWC's seated out as far as they can and still permit cyl. rotation. HBWC fills the .361 size bore.

The "sights" are for "young eyes". but my trifocals help, and it is very accurate with proper handloads.

Have never had the lust for a .32 T.B. as loading "small size ctgs." are a bit much for my fat, stubby fingers!

Main thing to look for on ANY T.B. is that it locks up TIGHT between the latch and the "ears" on the frame. Fairly e-z, but temporary fix can be done.

Others, who I really respect, warn against shooting ANY smokeless loads out of these older top breaks-no matter what vintage: frame stretching seems to be the major concern.

I would have carried a quality Webley R.I.C. or British Bulldog in .44, .442, .450 or .455, IF it was 125 years ago, or even a .41 Colt Thunderer instead of a S&W small top break!

Bud

I've got at least a dozen S&W top breaks in both single and double action. I've got .32s, l38s, and a .44. I shoot them all. Most are early guns from around 1880. Like Bud said, as long as they haven't been abused, they are just fine for occasional shooting. I even carry some of them sometimes, just because I can.
I've got a .38 single action with 2" cut barrel that's quite a bit smaller than a J frame!
Chris

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

LoneWolf said: "I have a 4th model .38 S&W Top Break, and have had NO trouble using MILD smokeless loads with 148 gr. HBWC's seated out as far as they can and still permit cyl. rotation. HBWC fills the .361 size bore."



My 4th model is the one centerfire in the safe that I haven't reloaded for, but I've been meaning to and have, in fact, considered doing the same thing with Hornady 148 HBWCs. Problem is that none of my load books show ANYTHING for the .38 Short Colt. Where did you get your info?

Gator: I haqve owned old S&W's in both .32 and .38 S&W calibers, including single action Baby Russians and one I just bought yesterday, a .32 New Departure 1st Model, probably from 1889 or so. I have also owned younger and older IJ's, H&R's, and a few F&W's and H&A's. I have shot all but one, very early IJ .22 RF revolver made for black powder ammo that was just too flimsy and worn to shoot. I have handloaded for several of the .38's.
I have had no problems with any of the revolvers I shot, but I made sure they were in good mechanical condition, if not the best appearance. I have never had one not work.

They were very well made little guns, and they still are...find one that works well and you have a gem that no company could make today.

I also have carried one or another of these when I felt like it.

FWIW.

Mark

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Liberals made the USA

Thanks for the help on this topic. I still haven't found a top break that I've wanted to call my own. (I did end up with a couple of out and out muzzle loading guns of more recent vintage along the way.)

In college, before I knew much about SW top breaks, I purchased that single early 1900s vintage top break. I fired it with Winchester ammunition that I'd purchased at a gunshop, but didn't shoot it much as .38SW cartridges were about double what .38 special sold for (and 9mm for autos was far less).

I made the mistake of taking that old revolver apart (I'd only paid something like 160 dollars for it) and never could get it back together. I think my mother still has it in a box somewhere.

It seems like these still turn up on AA in some numbers, but I'm particularly hesistant to buy one sight unseen as the issues with lock up do worry me.

I think the old Iver Johnson in the family was purchased during Prohibition. I remember my great grandmother was living in Detroit at the time and my grandmother said it was purchased when someone tried to kidnap her brother Nicky. I think Nicky was actually working as a runner for a bootlegger, or in some other minor capacity like look out, at the time. I'm not sure if it was purchased new or not, but my grandfather ended up with it, where it sat in the attic in its original box for years.

I remember fiing it as a kid, but in hindsight, I'm doubtful of the safety of it, as I can remember keeping the brass around later and some of them had bulged primers. Not a good thing. The old plastic (or Bakelite or whatever it was) grips weren't very comfortable either.

I remember the old SW that I had as being more comfortable and seemingly better made. Part of the reason I'd like to find one is that I'd like to see just what the penetration is like, esp from a short barreled version, to get a better feel for just what the old guns were capable of.

There is information in the old Lyman and Ideal books about .38 Short COLT but the S&W 4 th model is chambered for .38 S&W not .38 Short COLT. on which the brass is the same diameter as the .38 special.

.38 COLT NEW POLICE is the proper brass that can be used in the .38 S&W guns but all the factory New Police loads were intended for Colt Swing out cylinder revolvers. I believe that they were loaded to the same standard as .38 S&W but there were no Colt Break tops..

I have loaded .38 S&W with 2 gr Bullseye behind a 158 gr bullet and uses them sparingly in a I J and several break top S&Ws. The load came from the 1943 Belding & Mull hand book which listed the 146 gr lead bullet at 580 fps with 2 .0 gr Bullseye.

If you would like more information I have a lot of old reloading data that I could look up for you.

Jim

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Gun Safety is no accident.

I grew up on IVERS,H&R and red dog,blue bird ,defender ect.we kids used to trade back and forth and most went for a dollar.some were 32 rim others center fire.what you have to remember they were bought to defend yourself from footpads.they were not used to fire 100s and 1000s
of rounds.many small police deptments had 38 S&W H&Rs and thought they were adequite.I have a Smith safety hammerless may never have geen fired the guard carried it for 35 ys.in hip pocket holster which I have.I have Iver 32S&W and H&R 38S&W.and an "I" frame S&W 32long.I shoot them occasionaly.I am now working on a S&W spur trigger break.32.I never was interested in when and where.but now I will have to.

can some one help me out, is it safe to use 32s&w short ammo in a 32 s&w long pistol.... anyone????? i dnt knw if im in the right forum joind new

Yes, its is safe to shoot .32 shorts in a .32 long revolver in good condition.

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Rule of law, not a man.

The security guard where I work asked me where he could get ammo for his Police Positive Colt in .32 colt NP. I gave him the website to some companies that still sell it. Later he told me that some gun shop guy told him that .32 ACP will work just fine it it and he fired some and it worked ok.
While the old Colt held up ok, I told him this was NOT a good idea and he should really use the ammo the gun was originally chambered for. I don't think he listened. Some people just dont care. As long as it goes "bang" when you pull the trigger...oh well.

this is an old thread but worth reviving, I have something to add- a S&W 3rd model 38 SA I recently acquired, has a stretched/slightly bowed frame just behind the front lower hinge pin- enough so that the gun would not snap shut, and the latch had to be forced down with a lot of pressure on the frame. Even so the latch was not going all the way down when locked. Then it was very difficult and hard to unlatch, had to pry the latch with a small screwdriver to open it.

Looking at the top frame lugs that engage the latch, they were sticking out way too far toward the back of the gun, compared to my 2 other SW guns. (baby russian and 32 DA). So the latch could not completely close downward over them.

so I'm looking at the gun wondering what could cause this, as at first glance it looks just fine, just patina'd- sure enough the lower frame is slightly bowed downward, just behind the front lower hinge pin area.

this caused the barrel to be pulled forward a bit

either someone fired a lot of modern store ammo smokeless loads in it, until it stretched the lower frame- OR the gun was stuck shut and someone pried it open and bent the frame.

I saw no evidence that the gun was pried open in such a manner.

So it appears it stretched from stress, because the gun was also missing the cylinder- which would explain it. I'd wager they blew the gun up at one time, or swelled/cracked the cylinder, and stretched the frame- or perhaps were shooting heavy handloads from it

the front extractor cam was also jammed, and had to be ground out of the barrel slot, and removed- the little slider in it, was stuck in the upward position, and the cam could not be removed from the barrel, and would not allow a cylinder to be installed, it was stuck in permanent out eject extract position.

the fix to get the gun to snap open/shut like the others do, was file the lugs in the back, to shorten them, so the latch could close all the way down

next it get the cylinder and extractor lug