Schofield replica jamming black powder

Doug.38PR

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I noticed on Wikipida that black powder cartridges are not advisable for schofields as the "fouling jams the cylinder" after a few shots. I have found this a frequent problem with my Uberti replica.
White box .45 Long Colt doesn't seem to have a problem with it...BUT, shouldn't Black Powder if nothing else work in it? I mean...the gun design was originally mean't to take black powder.
 
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I noticed on Wikipida that black powder cartridges are not advisable for schofields as the "fouling jams the cylinder" after a few shots. I have found this a frequent problem with my Uberti replica.
White box .45 Long Colt doesn't seem to have a problem with it...BUT, shouldn't Black Powder if nothing else work in it? I mean...the gun design was originally mean't to take black powder.
 
The original Schofield fired the 45 Schofield cartridge not the 45 Colt. The cylinders were slightly shorter in them with a little more gap between the forcing cone and cylinder mouth. The original Schofields would not function with the Colt 45 ctg but the "Colt 45" would shoot the 45 Schofield. This is apparently where the controversary over 45 Long Colt terminology vs 45 Colt originated. If your going to reload for the replica pay particular attention to the seating depth and bullet design.
As far as shooting black powder in your replica the loading would best be done using the 45 Schofield brass and 28 grs of black powder pushing a 250 gr lead bullet.
The Schofield brass also has a larger diameter rim than does the 45 Colt, thus you will not experience the fired cases slipping under the extractor. Also tip the gun upside down before you initiate ejection especially with the 45 Colt ctg cases. You might keep a spray bottle of water and dish soap available as your shooting BP, when the cylinder starts to bind, give the cylinder face/forcing cone area a squirt to looses the carbon build up.
Good luck, I enjoy shooting my Schofield 45 hope you do too.
 
Enjoy shooting mine very much. Almost never have a problem with brass under the ejector star as opening the top upside down angled away from me was the first thing I was told when I started looking at it in the store.
I've put winchester .45 white box (non black powder) through my schofield without any problems...however I was told to keep the pressure levels on the low end (don't know if standard smokeless powder cartridges are still considered low end.) Buffalo Bore is out of the question.
I wouldn't mind finding a couple of speedloader's for the schofield. Doesn't make a bad horsepistol for my car as I've had it between the seat like dragoons had such guns along their saddles at times.
 
I agree with keeping the pressures down, I don't shoot hot loads in mine either but then I still enjoy shooting and not hurting myself. Get yourself a couple of H.K.S. 25-5 speed loaders, they work just fine.
 
The original Schofield design has a long 'gas ring' on the front end of the cylinder. That longer extension of the cylinder places itself directly under the barrel/cylinder gap. It's purpose was to deflex as much of the BP gas and fouling as possible from getting into the cylinder base pin and gumming up the works. The replicas have a longer cylinder due to the chamberings (45 Colt), and have done away with the gas ring seal to make room for that. This places the barrel/cylinder gap directly over the cylinder base pin. When fired, there is nothing to deflect the BP fouling and instead it goes right into that rotation joint between the base pin and cylinder.
 
Originally posted by Doug.38PR:
is there anything a gunsmith can do?

You might talk to a competent smith and ask about having some of the cylinder face removed to create a gap. One thing I do with my black powder rifle cartridges is to put 5 gr of unique over the flash hole then put the bp on top. These loads burn very clean but I really have no advise on what amount of smokeless (unique) to use in a pistol cartridge. Rumor has it that you can go 5-7% of total powder wt to obtain a safe load. If you try this proceed with caution on working up a load. Another way might be is to use P pyrodex, 777 etc. Again I don't use them so have no clue how much they foul.
 
Howdy

21252hq's answer is correct. The Uberti redesigned Schofields changed the relationship of the barrel/cylinder gap from the original design. When they changed the length of the cylinder from a 45 Schofield length to a 45 Colt length, the frame was not stretched to allow for the longer cylinder. The spacing between the frame and the barrel no longer allowed for a bushing to deflect fouling away from the cylinder base pin. Essentially the Uberti version places the barrel cylinder gap in the same plane as the spot where the cylinder pin emerges from the cylinder. Without a bushing or gas ring to deflect fouling away from the pin, BP fouling is blasted directly onto the pin. BP fouling blasted directly onto the cylinder base pin of any revolver will quickly bind up the cylinder and jam up the gun.

I shoot a great deal of Black Powder in 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, and 44-40 in Colts, Rugers and Clones. The answer in this situation has nothing to do with the cartridge or the pressure of the cartridge. It has to do with the position of the barrel cylinder gap in relationship to the cylinder base pin. Changing cartridges, or using a lower powered cartirdge will not accomplish anything. Trust me on this, I have been shooting nothing but Black Powder in all my Cowboy guns for years. Without a shield to protect the pin, fouling will be blasted directly onto the base pin and the cylinder will bind. The 1858 Remington New Model Army suffered from the same design deficiency. The cylinder of the Remmie had no raised bushing to deflect fouling away from the base pin.

Cutting the face of the cylinder to widen the gap is not the answer. In fact, open the gap too much and you blast even more fouling onto the pin. It is probably possible to fit a bushing to the cylinder, and cut a relief for it in the frame. The only gunsmith I know of who might be doing this is Bill English of The Smith Shop in Warwick RI. Bill also performs a conversion to make the hand of a Schofield activated by the hammer, not the trigger.

The Smith Shop

The other answer is to use a bullet specifically designed for Black Powder that carries enough Black Powder compatible lube to keep the fouling soft and pliable. If BP fouling can be kept soft, it will not bind as much as it will if allowed to dry and harden normally. Also, you cannot use conventional Smokeless bullet lube with Black Powder. You must use a lube specifically formulated to keep BP fouling soft. Otherwise, you will quickly build up a coating of hard fouling that is difficult to remove.

There is a specific line of pistol bullets that have been recently developed specifically to carry enough lube for rifles and pistols for Black Powder cartridge shooting. It is the Big Lube line of bullets. I used the PRS 250 grain Big Lube bullet in all my 45 Colt loads. There is also a 200 grain version called the J/P 45-200 that works very well with the 45 Schofield cartridge.

Big Lube

P.S. I would NEVER add Smokeless Powder to a Black Powder load. If you want cleaner burning Black Powder loads, choose a better grade of Black Powder. Goex is notoriously dirty burning. It leaves the most fouling behind of any of the commonly available powders. Swiss is the best on the market, but unfortunately it is also the most expensive. Swiss uses a better grade of charcoal and produces less solid particulate matter than Goex. It is preferred by BPCR shooters because it burns so clean. The new entry to the BP market is Shuetzen. Shuetzen is made by the same people who make Swiss, and it uses the same high grade Buckthorn Alder charcoal. It leaves less fouling behind than Goex and will keep any revolver rolling longer simply because there is less fouling blasted onto the cylinder base pin. The good news is Shuetzen costs about the same as Goex, so it is really a no brainer these days to use Shuetzen if you can find it.
 
wow! a lot of good information. The only other solution I can see, is to use STANDARD (not +p, Buffalo Bore, etc.) smokeless powder .45 Long Colt. When I first started having this problem of jamming, I took it back to the gun store, told them what was happening, left the gun with them for their smith. I came back and they said the gun was fine, they put a box of 50 through it with no problems. It was a white box of Winchester .45 Long Colt. I put a box of them through it myself afterward. No problem. I figured the problem just shot itself away. Then as soon as I started using black powder cowboy cartridges it started getting harder to cock again. Now I know why.
 
If you want the smoke of BP but not the fouling problems in a revolver you could reload the cartridges with American Pioneer (formerly CleanShot) BP substitute. I've used it for a few years and have loaded many many rounds in 455, 45acp, 45Colt, 38sp, 32S&WL and have never had a revolver freeze up from fouling. In fact there is none to speak of even after shooting as many as 100rds in a range session. All the flash, boom and smoke of BP without the fouling (or smell!). Easy clean up with plain water on a patch and wipe down then oil. Loads the same as BP,,fill the case to the base of the bullet with a slight powder compression when seated. I've shot it in Webleys, which will tie up in just a couple of cylinder full with BP loads, SAA's, DA revolvers, etc. Though the 45acps were originally loaded up for a MkIV Webley recut to that caliber, I did shoot some through a 1911 Colt auto and everything worked fine! Nothing special for bullet lube either, in fact they don't advise anything extra for lube. I don't have any experience with the other BP substitutes like 777 or Pyrodex to give an opinion but perhaps there are others here that have used them in a revolver (but not necessarily and autoloader!)
 
Quite a discussion going with some good information here:http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,14262.0.html
Schofieldgasring.jpg

Schofieldgasringcloseup.jpg
 
You might look up Mike Venturino's article in the latest "Guns" (I think) magazine.

He discusses reducing fowling in black cartridge pistols.

He does not deal with the desigh issues, but he recommends cast bullets with large lubrication grooves so that the lubrication softens the fowling
 
Tim-

I believe that Venturino discussed fouling. "Fowling" is done with shotguns!
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Sorry: couldn't resist.

T-Star
 
Howdy Again

Excellent photo. The purpose of that helical groove on the cylinder pin is to be a place for BP fouling to build up without binding the cylinder. One trick that Remmie 1858 shooters use is to cut similar relief grooves on the base pin. Those grooves can also be filled with BP lube to help keep the cylinder rolling.

I believe the reason it is helical rather than a series of parallel grooves is to force the fouling to migrate out of the groove as the cylinder rotates. I don't know if that scheme ever really worked though. Most Colt pattern open top type percussion revolvers have a similar helical groove on the cylinder arbor.
 
Is all "Cowboy Action" ammo considered black powder? IOW, will it jam my gun?
Winchester doesn't seem, to make their white box smokeless ammo anymore and .45 ammo cost an arm and a leg for less (meaning instead of paying $13 for box of 50, you are paying $18 for a box of 20. Shoot Remington box of 50 costs...$40.)
 
No.

Most 'Cowboy Ammo' is loaded with Smokeless powder. The velocity and resultant pressure has been reduced a bit to generate less recoil and muzzle flip, and it usually comes with a Round Nosed Flat Point bullet so it can be safely loaded in the tubular magazine of a lever gun. Unless it specifically says it is loaded with Black Powder or a BP Sub, it is loaded with Smokeless powder. Most of the major ammo companies who put out a line of Cowboy Ammo charge more for it, not less, than their standard lines of ammo. You can fire any standard SAAMI spec smokeless ammo in your replica Schofield.

I have not bought factory loaded 45 Colt ammo for years, so I am not up on prices. You might try Ammo Direct, I hear they have good prices.

Ammo Direct
 
Thank you for the link. I noticed they have .45 Schofield. Will that shoot in a Schofield for .45 Long Colt? (IOW, will it work as a .38 Spl does in a .357 magnum gun?)
 
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