I have a theory. Need some help with testing.

Art Doc

Art Doc

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A new member asked about his Victory Model that has been reamed for 38 Special cartridges.

OK, it has actually happened hundreds of times. But a recent new member went and shot the gun and reported no swelling or splitting of the cases which makes me wonder... is current factory 38 Special ammo so down-loaded that the over sized chambers cease to be an issue? Standard 38 Special ammo is now loaded to around 16,000 PSI (max for the caliber is 21,500) and I wonder if this is insufficient to expand the cases in the chambers?

I don't own a reamed 38 S&W to try it. Maybe a couple of folks around here do and would be willing to shoot a few rounds of current factory ammo to see if the cases expand or not. I am willing to bet that they don't. I would bet a dollar that factory +P at 18,500 PSI also will not expand the cases and bulge them in a reamed 38 S&W chamber.

Anyone care to give this a try and report the results?
 
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The last time I saw one shot, 3.1 grs of W231 behind a 148gr wadcutter would bulge them.

I've never seen them split in a reamed 38 S&W.
The bulge is very subtle, and I suspect the guy just isn't seeing it.
 
I have a Lend Lease pre-Victory that was rechambered to .38 Special. Every chamber bulges cases using factory wadcutter ammo, haven't tried any hand loaded ammo though.
 
Sorry, Saxon Pig,

But from what I've seen and done, you lose the bet.

Years ago I owned Lend-Lease .38 S&W reamed to take .38 Specials. One of my shooting buddies also had the same model, similarly modified to .38 Special. After firing several boxes of factory Remington, Federal, and Winchester 158 grain RNL standard velocity ammunition, ALL fired cases exhibited excessive base bulge from the larger diameter .38 S&W portion of the chambers. Accuracy was only mediocre; something like 6"-8" groups at 25 yards. Worse, reloading and firing the bulged cases only gave a couple loadings before they developed body splits.

We fitted the Victory models with surplus M&P .38 Special cylinders & barrels from Sherwood Distributors. The results were most satisfactory with 3"-4" groups and no brass loss from splits.

Nominal .38 S&W case diameter is 0.386". Nominal .38 Special case diameter is 0.379". Add to this fact that many conversions were sloppily done using .38 Special reamers not properly fitted with throat pilots to fit the .38 S&W chambers, and you end up with oversized, roughly finished chambers that shoot neither .38 S&W or .38 Special well.

It's been often stated that firing mild or standard loads in these reamed-out guns is safe. Well, they MAY be safe in posing little or no hazard to the shooter, but they are also unlikely to be satisfactory shooters.
 
I had a reamed out victory model. Every round I fired the case split. This was all standard velocity ammo. No +Ps.
 
Like I said, I hadn't tried it and was going on the one report I read.

I know that +Ps do not expand enough to seal the chambers and carbon stains cover the outsides of the cases, a classic signal of low chamber pressure.

Oh well.
 
On the other hand 6-8", 25 yard groups should still be sufficient if shooting inside of 20'. So long as you're close and don't require the services of more than six rounds I reckon it beats chunkin' rocks.

I don't know, but would think it could become a tad expensive if you were faced w/changing the cylinder & brl on a shooter.
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Not having the skills to do the work myself I would incure the cost of the parts along w/labor.
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"I know that +Ps do not expand enough to seal the chambers and carbon stains cover the outsides of the cases, a classic signal of low chamber pressure."

That has kept from buying a cheap mod 92 copy in 45 colt. I thought it would be nice to shoot now and then, but I don't reload and the "cheap" cowboy loads are known to spit gas back in your face due to the straight walls and low pressure.
 
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Here's what a 38 Special case looked like when fired in my reamed out 38 S&W Victory. Was loaded with 2.7 Grains of Bullseye and taper crimped for my Mod 52.
IMG_1371.jpg
 
Not to threadjack, but I recall hearing looong ago that the revolver that Oswald used to shoot Officer Tippit was a .38 S&W, reamed to accept .38 Special. It was stated that this was done to avoid rifling marks on the bullet, making it impossible to make a ballistic match of the bullet to the gun. It didn't seem to occur to the conspiracy theorists that it might be done because the .38 Special was common and easy to come by, compared to .38 S&W.

Thirty years ago, same as now, the conspiracy zealots go for the nefarious and dark explanation, rather than the obvious and simple. Plus not knowing squat about guns and shooting.
 
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Tom K, I was thinking about the Oswald/Tippit thing when I first started reading this thread. I saw a pic of the gun a couple of nights ago. It looks like one of those Harrison and Cogswell guns (I think that's the name of the company) with the odd ramp front sight. I think they were a London based company. They cut down the 5" lend-lease guns and reamed them so they would shoot .38 specials and shipped literally thousands of them back over here. I still see them for sale at the gunshows. I have yet to find a dealer who admits what it is. I would not pay money for one and if given one I would not shoot it. Apparently Oswald or his handlers had him on a budget. Just as he mail-ordered a cheap Carcano to shoot the president, he probably picked up a cheap revolver to carry on his attempted getaway.
 
Just used a micrometer to crudely measure my model 67' cylinder bore against that of my "Professionally" converted Parker Hale pre model 11.
M67, 3.82"
M11, 3.90"
Only shot it once but next time I will pick up and mic the casings.
 
Nicksterdemus said:
On the other hand 6-8", 25 yard groups should still be sufficient if shooting inside of 20'. So long as you're close and don't require the services of more than six rounds I reckon it beats chunkin' rocks.

I don't know, but would think it could become a tad expensive if you were faced w/changing the cylinder & brl on a shooter.
-----
Not having the skills to do the work myself I would incure the cost of the parts along w/labor.
----------
"I know that +Ps do not expand enough to seal the chambers and carbon stains cover the outsides of the cases, a classic signal of low chamber pressure."

That has kept from buying a cheap mod 92 copy in 45 colt. I thought it would be nice to shoot now and then, but I don't reload and the "cheap" cowboy loads are known to spit gas back in your face due to the straight walls and low pressure.
Click to expand...

Entirely off-topic, but I have had decent results by using Hodgdon's recommended load of 777 in a 45 Colt chambered lever rifle with a 255 gr rnfp. Clean burning, good seal. And in a handgun that load lets you know you don't want to be on the receiving end.
 
In the same vein w/theory I'm curious if Al Blazer cartridges will bulge more than brass. I've read folks stating that Blazer, after expanding & sealing, did not maintain the elasticity of brass to return to original dimensions in standard chambers.

According to some this bulge in standard chambers was the cause for less than silky smooth extraction. As others, I've pondered if the expansion of Aluminum was retained for a longer period of time than brass due to the heat from the explosion and the retained heat of the cylinder.

The one constant is that Blazer is the only Al cartridge which can be compared to differing grades of brass construction.

However, if it is proven that Blazer retains more deformity than any brass then firing a cylinder full of them could be the ultimate hands-on test of a conversion.
 
Blazers are just about the ultimate in cheap, disposable, one-time-use, small arms ammunition cartridge cases. They appear to be unheattreated aluminum, and have no anodizing for durability. There indeed is a difference in maleability between brass and aluminum cartridge cases. It may be small enough to not make any difference in extraction forces and serviceability in handgun and even submachine gun applications.

I've studied the military specifications for other small arms cartridge cases, including 20mm and 25mm automatic cannon, and they uniformly used heat treated and anodized cases for durability.

Apparently for the 9mm, .38 Spl, .357 Magnum, and .45 ACP calibers that you normally find Blazer ammunition, the difference in performance and increased production costs is not worthwhile.
 
I had one and it bulged the cases just like the one pictured. Never split one, though. I eventually sold the gun but am still reloading those same cases for my other .38s. I guess if I had kept using them in the Victory, they would've eventually split along the edge of the bulge.

Mine shot very well, btw.
 
I have one that was reworked but very neatly. Rather than reaming, the cylinders were sleeved (and it takes a strong light to see the marks at the ejector end). The barrel was cut to 4" and a long foresight (Parker Hale, around 2" long attached). the gun was proofed for 0.38 special at 4 tons/square inch. I had the barrel crowned and it is quite an accurate pistol, and due to the sleeving, all numbers match, butt, cylinder and barrel. Dave_n
 
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