Mr. Jinks' letter arrived today. The gun was one of 12 shipped to H. H. Harris in 1960 as a pre-20--there is no model number inside the crane, even though the Model 20 appeared three years before.

Apparently H. H. Harris ordered a lot of S&Ws, so I'm going to assume that Chicago cops must have been regular customers.

Why the guns were ordered without ejector rod shrouds is still as much of a mystery as it ever was.

ORIGINAL POST BELOW:

I purchased a 95% 38/44 at a gun show on Saturday. I was so excited by the condition that I completely forgot one thing:

There is no ejector rod shroud.

And the gun is finished in bright blue.

The serial number, in the 156,000 range, puts is as being a 1956 gun, so just on the cusp of the Model 20's arrival.

This one is five screw, and did I mention that it's really, really pretty? I'm going to go ahead and get it lettered by S&W, but until then, anybody have any ideas how this one came about? A helpful soul here on the forum tells me he's identified one other in this configuration, and the serial number of that one is a bare 16 numbers away from mine. So either it's a special order, or someone went to an incredible amount of trouble to rebarrel a really nice piece.

All numbers match, by the way: frame, cylinder, and barrel.

All help appreciated.

Is the barrel numbered?

__________________
Gary Grace
S&WCA #1837

Yep, sure is.

And so are the grips (which look virtually new, with no sign of refinishing or other mucking about).

I like it a lot

__________________
Gary Grace
S&WCA #1837

My first impression is that the shroud has been milled away. No idea why, but that's how it looks to me. The barrel contour on the underside does not look right to me for a standard unshrouded barrel (of which there were none for the 38/44). The modified front sight blade proves it's been worked on and I am pretty sure cutting the shroud was part of the deal.

The beautiful reblue job was likely done at the same time. A very competent smith apparently did the work.

__________________
No life story has happy end.

How about a few very close-up photos of the barrel from both sides ?

Jerry

__________________
.38/44 Outdoorsman Accumulator

SP,
The gun is correct in all respects and left the factory as seen in the picture.
Bill

__________________
38-44heavyduty.com

Could you expand on that a bit? I for one would love to hear the story behind it.

Dave

__________________
RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

Bill,
I'm not doubting you and granted, you would know before me, but how do you know that? If so this would be an ultra rare gun and Leland would have really pulled a big fish out of a local gun show!
Many

LelandRay,

Welcome to the Forum. I'm glad you showed up here with your new find. I'm confident that you've uncovered a fairly rare HD and will look forward to the results you will eventually hear from Roy Jinks.

Best Regards,

Jerry

I would really hesitate to make these comments when an unshrouded .38 HD is right there in front of you. The short-action hammer and front sight style are completely correct for a gun made in the time frame the SN would indicate.

Very easily could be a special order gun, or a barrel forging for a 1950 Military or Army could have been mistakenly bored .38 and it was used. If there is at least one other reported it is possible several were done, mistakenly or otherwise, or it was a market test to see if a dying model could possibly be resurrected by lightening it up a bit. The shroud was hardly needed to provide extra weight on this gun as it was used for on the other Magnum N-Frames. I wonder if any N-Frame would ever have been made with a shroud if W&K hadn't ordered the 3rd Model .44 HE with this feature.

Agreed. Some folks tend to have their needle ready to burst someone's bubble before they even take the time to check their facts! The front sight sure looks right as rain to me!

The legend was that the shroud was needed when Texas style justice was administered (pistol whupping). This was of course before the blasted civil rights act of 1964!

I held this very gun in my hands shortly after it was purchased by Leland. While I am far from being an expert the gun did not appear to have been machined or reblued. I am eagerly awaiting the reply from Mr. Jinks to the inquiry that Leland is sending off sometime this week. Until then, unless Aspenhill or others know something we don't know, the mystery remains. This may be as good or better than the find that jmark1651 found at this same show not long ago.

Very interesting revolver, I'm looking forward to the results of the letter.

__________________
dd884
JMHO-YMMV

While I believe this gun will eventually be found factory correct, I think that besides removing the underlug, the rear of the front sight has been modified slightly. Mine are all fully round. This one seems to have been milled off at a slight angle (or is it my old eyes?). I wouldn't be surprised if it the rear face of this sight is also serrated.

Regards,

Jerry

According to Roy Jinks, the gun is right and part of a special order of 12.

__________________
James Redfield
LM #497

Special orders are always the joker in the deck and makes it virtually impossible to say ANYTHING wasn't available as anything is possible where special orders (like we could say the RMs were available in 22LR since one was built) are concerned and as I have stated many, many times I am not an expert on S&Ws so I am not aware of the many arcane variations that pop up. (Gee, a whole 12 of these were produced. How could I have missed knowing about such a popular variation?) My comments are always opinion based on personal experience and observation. I had never before seen an HD in this configuration (again, with the world flooded with a whopping 12 of them how did I miss them?) so I assumed it was modified from original.

I still maintain that front sight and shroud have been altered. But apparently it was S&W who altered them before shipping. It may letter as being shipped this way but it is "correct" only in that it shipped in its modified form. To me it's still not a standard model as they had to modify the 12 guns from standard configuration to meet the demands of the buyer.

Naturally, since I had assumed that the gun was extensively modified after leaving the factory (when it fact it was extensively modified prior to leaving the factory) I also assumed it had been refinished (and I stated it was a beautiful refinish*) which would be necessary after so much machining. Of course that's not the case.

Obviously a collector will salivate over such a rare version but to me it lacks the visual appeal of the traditional HD and I'm not sure why the agency that purchased these wanted them this way. I thought it was cops who wanted the shrouded barrel in the first place, then some cops turn around and special order the guns sans shroud. Go figure.

So, I slouch corrected. Once again I have been exposed as the non-expert I readily admit that I am.



*The finish is much prettier than any standard HD I have ever seen. Also part of the special order?

__________________
No life story has happy end.

Lowriderfxr- I did not, in fact, have the gun right in front of me. I had a photo of it. I once saw a photo of Bill Clinton talking to a Martian on the cover of a magazine. Does that make it real?

As for the hammer and trigger being correct for 1956, I won't dispute the hammer (nor did I in my original post) but here's my experience with HDs from 1956.



Please note the front sight. Like I said, I have never seen a pre-model marked HD with a sight such as seen on the gun being discussed. My bad for not being aware of every possible variation seen in special orders.

__________________
No life story has happy end.

The gun is very unique. Congratulations on a "one of twelve" kind. I look forward to the rest of the story...

__________________
Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Many,
James answered the question already.
Bill

__________________
38-44heavyduty.com

great looking revolver,Leland. I saw the response from Roy that James revealed. That is great to have one of 12 in that configuration

__________________
J. Mark McCarver

That's one of the neatest HD's I've ever seen!! Congrat's on a find like that. Bill you obviously know more about the gun other than it's correct. Who was it made for? Was it an agency or individual? Just when you think nothing like this will turn up, wham!

Again Leland congrat's on a beautiful find.

Great Find no matter what others say, one in 12 are you kidding me WOW!!

I agree with James56

AND, one of the best 1st posts I've ever seen.

__________________
Sure you did

Very cool. I looked right past the missing ejector rod shroud the first time I saw the picture. The gun is kind of like a prototype Model 58 chambered for a round that is less expensive to shoot. Now that I know they exist, I'll keep an eye open for one.

Congratulations to those of you that have one.

__________________
David Wilson

Bill: Do you know if any Outdoorsman were ever produced with similar barrels?

I would still love to have some detailed photos of the barrel/shroud for my files !

Jerry

__________________
.38/44 Outdoorsman Accumulator

Jerry,
I don't know if they did any Outdoorsman, but do know they made some with alloy frame.
Bill

__________________
38-44heavyduty.com

Well, not a "first" post, as I had over 2,000 when I became inactive some time ago. And then I found that my membership had expired, disappeared, or had been erased. Not a problem, certainly, and if nothing else, this is certainly the most interesting first post I've ever made.

I'd like to thank Mr. Aspenhill Bill and others for the time they took to help me out with my "problem." I'd also like to thank my friends Charlie, Mark, and Many, particularly Mark and Charlie for their early morning phone calls today.

Right now I don't think anyone could rain on my parade, even if they tried really, really hard, as I literally NEVER have had a gun show experience this exciting (other than seeing Elvis and the Memphis Mafia at a Jackson show in the early 70s), though I've had many good times and have found some wonderful pieces to take home with me. This event is just absolutely over the top, however.

I don't collect guns, I accumulate them. I bought the old HD because I wanted a shooter, but of course now I couldn't possibly carry it through the woods or out to the range without feeling not only very guilty, but more than a little bit reckless. And I don't like those feelings: guns are made to be used, and I don't believe in owning safe queens. No offense to those who collect, save, and treasure the truly wonderful tools we all love, but it's just not my thing. So after I write to Mr. Jinks and get as much info as possible, I'll sell the HD on Gunbroker or something.

Again, thanks to everyone for your help. I'll be posting some more pictures later on tonight or tomorrow, as soon as I can get them done.

LR

Again, oddly enough, I beg to differ with what you say. This revolver has never been altered. It was PRODUCED, or MANUFACTURED this way. It was not altered at the factory or anywhere else. The front sight is correct also, not altered. I have owned guns with this very sight.

I'm not trying to start a war with you SP, but many if not most of your posts have a bubble bursting tone to them and all are done without a little fact checking.

I would hate to see my old buddy Leland, or someone in a simular situation flip a rare and desireable revolver like this one because someone rushed to judgement with incorrect facts.

Why don't you just step back and do a little research next time?

Fire back, I'm ready!

Hope you give the Forum here a shot frist
thanks
james

Yep, I don't keep guns that are too pretty to shoot, since I'm primarily a shooter. I shoot the 520 because I like shooting it, even though it was NIB when I got it (and could probably still sell it at a tidy profit, besides). And I shoot my PC Schofield because it's so darned much FUN!

I think the term "altered" should never be used describing a gun coming from the factory. I agree with Many that the correct term to be used would be either maunfactured or produced.
'Altered" denotes some sinister deception meant to mislead a buyer. Just my 2 cents worth.

__________________
Sure you did

LRFXR- Please refer to the photo of the 1956 HD I posted. Round sight. You may have many 1956s HDs with the ramp sight but like I said I have never seen one. As I keep repeating over and over I am not an expert.

The only way I know of for that unshrouded HD barrel to have been produced was for S&W to take a standard shrouded barrel and mill it into the present configuration. Sort of like the old Target Models that were factory converted from fixed sight versions prior to shipping. To me, these are modified guns... modified by the factory. You would argue that since this is how it left the factory it is original. That's one way to define it, but not mine. That unshrouded barrel was not manufactured, it was created from the standard unit. These 12 special order HDs are not standard items, they are factory customs. A fine point but that's how I see it.

As for bursting bubbles, I didn't realize I had that sort of power. But thank you for reminding me that this forum is all about, for, and by the serious collectors and experts, and I am neither. I forget that, sometimes.

I ask questions that nobody else seems to ask. Apparently there's a reason. I speak directly and I offer my honest opinion when someone solicits comments but I guess what I see as being honest others see as bursting bubbles. I'm not trying to be irritating, this is just the way I am. Ask my friends.

Not everyone wants directness and honesty. OK. I will try to remember my place.

__________________
No life story has happy end.

That sure is purty "I'll take it"

__________________
Sure you did

LelandRay:

Thank you very much for the close-up photos ! I appreciate your help !

I will ask Bill to post similar photos of a shrouded version of the same vintage !

Interesting front blade !

Best Regards,

Jerry

__________________
.38/44 Outdoorsman Accumulator

I don't think UPS will allow you to ship your first born child to Mississippi. Maybe the post office will, however.

LelandRay,

Probably not too far off, since that's one of only 12 ever made. Its value must be way up there like one of those extremely rare Heavy Dutys they made in .45 Colt.

That is a very rare find and it appears to be in mint condition as well. That gun is a "collection" all by itself.

Congratulations!!

Ohhh Tom , I had him just where I wanted him

__________________
Sure you did

Misinformation is the curse of the internet, and distracts from threads like this one that are otherwise interesting and educational.

I am glad I joined this forum when I did. This has been extremely fun and educational.

Leland - In my opinion if the gun has been shot already, why not hang on to it and take it to the range a couple time a year? I don't think the value will decrease much at all but the upside might be greater. If you were going to us it for hiking through the woods that might be a different story.

Like I said, just my thoughts.

ddj

OK... OK... I get it, already. I'm a stupid idiot and should shut up.

Got it.

__________________
No life story has happy end.

Jerry,
Here are some pics of S155250:








Hope this works for you.
Bill

__________________
38-44heavyduty.com

Frank/SP,
You have a good eye as the barrels were regular HD barrels and they milled the shrouds away. You are not an idiot and please keep asking the questions.
Bill

__________________
38-44heavyduty.com

Thank you lowriderfxr, it's about time someone said something.

The beauty of this forum is that everyone has something to contribute or add and some of us have strong wills and personalities. It is important to remember that and treat folks with respect,or as we would want to be treated ourself. I have found this thread very informative,and knowing Leland personally, makes me glad he found this beautiful speciman.

__________________
J. Mark McCarver

Well, Mr. cherokee5425 if you thought something needed saying why didn't YOU speak up? At least I have the courage to say what I think.

__________________
No life story has happy end.

Yes sir Sax, I still love you, you cause things to be heard that most folks are afraid to say. You may remember my dumb question about the barrel markings on a .38 special revolver, you helped me immensely by exposing me as an "novice" so I have been studying up. I'll not be one forever, thanks to you. Of course, I was not making a statement then, I was merely asking a question since the seller had disputed what was marked on the barrel. I have become dependent on you as I am always assured of your honest opinion. Not offensive, refreshing most times, and thanks. Oh yes, Congratulations, LelandRay, you uncovered a treasure and I'm proud for you.

__________________
Sam
S&WHF 333 S&WCA 2198

I will confess right up front that I am an idiot, with no experience regarding the finer points of S&W history. Now that I've got that off my chest, does anyone have one, or have pictures of one of the 45colt HD's? I'd love to see one. I'm sure they are priced way, way out of my range, but it would give me something to dream about.

__________________
Hastings