.455

gaucho1

gaucho1

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Another early one I think.

Zero blue-6 1/2" barrel.
Butt-cylinder- marked 53071-barrel B 53071
B might be an 8
Crane and frame assembly marks same.
Barrel marked .455 with patent info. on top.
Has a lanyard loop.
Only other markings I could find are a small crossed flags
on grip side of cylinder.
Seems to lock up well,action is smooth.
I am guessing this is a Canadian police or other civil gun.
Please let me know what it is and DOB.

I am thinking this is a shooter. What do you think about doing a pinnacle type mod. so it will fire both .455 and .45 acp?

;)
 
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The B stamp on the barrel stands for "Blue" finish. it's not an 8. It told the platers/bluers what finish to use on the gun when the parts went to their station. The crossed flags are a military inspector acceptance stamp, usually seen on this model, when shipped to Britain. The gun is a .455 mark II hand Ejector, 2nd model, shipped circa 1917. Are the grips numbered to the gun? Why do you thnk it's Canadian? Ed #15
 
opoefc said:
The B stamp on the barrel stands for "Blue" finish. it's not an 8. It told the platers/bluers what finish to use on the gun when the parts went to their station. The crossed flags are a military inspector acceptance stamp, usually seen on this model, when shipped to Britain. The gun is a .455 mark II hand Ejector, 2nd model, shipped circa 1917. Are the grips numbered to the gun? Why do you thnk it's Canadian? Ed #15
Click to expand...

I thought it was Canadian because the other British ones seem to have numerous and prominent markings. I guess this one may have been unofficially "taken out of service" and therefore remains with only an acceptance mark.

The grips are modern magnas that fit like originals.

The ejector rod is most likely a replacement as it has intact blue. The cylinder moves back with the rod unless I hold the cylinder by hand. Something missing there!

I can post pictures,but the old girl is a little sad to look at.

Thank you for your replies. What do you think about the pinnacle style moon clip mod?
 
Be sure that it hasn't already been modified to .45 Colt or some other caliber. I wouldn't load it too hot. The chambers are fairly thin, although adequate for .455. I doubt that they heat-treated cylinders on these.

The proof marks are British proofs, not sign of govt. ownership. That is an arowhead mark. Canadian guns had the Broad Arrow within a "C." Officers bought their own sidearms then, and it was probably sold privately, although it came from Crown "Stores."

If you can fix whatever is wrong with it, I'd have it restored, if you have money for that. But that is a nostalgic/historic isssue. I wouldn't regard it as a primary defense gun today. If safe, I'd use .455 ammo from Hornady or Fiochhi. .45ACP probably exceeds proof loads in this gun. (And in other .455's, especiallly older Webleys. But Colt had better metallurgy than others.)

Look at the frame. You say that the cylinder comes back too far. Is the frame lug that serves as a cylinder stop polished off or very badly worn? If so, I think I'd just try to sell it to someone who wants the parts. An M-1917 frame lug would probably fit, but I don't know where you'd get one, as that'd ruin the M-1917 frame! Competent installation would also cost a lot.

Why did you buy the gun in this condition?!

T-Star
 
Texas Star
When I open the cylinder and press the ejector rod, the cylinder moves back. When the cylinder is closed, the end shake has very little movement. The action locks up fine.
The clearance at the rear of the cylinder is tight and .45acp with moonclips does not fit.
The step in the chambers are intact.
As for the why, I really like N frames and I feel I got a fine deal on a potential shooter. And it's old!
I have not read other cautions about shooting standard pressure .45 acp
from converted revolvers from this era. Is this a problem?
Thank you for your reply and attention. I am definitely climbing the learning slope.
;)
 
Since you mention a non original ejector rod and a cylinder that moves rearward when you actuate the ejector, I am reasonably certain that the back of the cylinder has been shaved to accept .45 ACP/.45 Auto Rim. Are there any serial numbers, assembly numbers stamped on rear face of cylinder. If not, I would say it hase been shaved.
 
" .45ACP probably exceeds proof loads in this gun. (And in other .455's, especiallly older Webleys."

I doubt that, myself. There isn't much difference between a 2nd Model HE in .455 and a 1917.

I don't think I'd do the Pinnacle conversion on a .455, because, IMHO, it would remove too much metal from the ejector star.

I have repaired revolvers with this problem (cylinder sliding to the rear) by tapping the frame lug out slightly with a punch. It generally doesn't take much.
 
Thank you Muley.
I was looking at the star and wondering about that issue.
Is the .455 different enough from 45 colt conversions to make it
sketchy?
I really want to conserve the .455 aspect,but I shoot .45acp in most of my N frames.
Seems like most .455 have been shaved at some point.

When you move the metal with a punch, do you come from the window toward the open cylinder or come from the top or bottom on the outside of the frame? I can see it would not take much. I have never had a gun with this issue. I also have never had one with zero bluing either!
I am still surprised the action and end shake are good.

I checked at the Reloading section and John Traveler shared the experience of Canadian shooters splitting Smith and Webley cylinders with .45acp.
John stated that ACP is proof load pressure for a .455.
Looks like the smart thing will be to learn to reload .455.
 
Last edited:
The frame lug is pressed into place. Remove the side plate and strip out the parts. Secure the revolver in a vise and use a punch just slightly smaller than the lug. TAP it to outside and reinstall the yoke and cylinder and see if it still slides past.

You may be able to find a replacement lug at one of the parts dealers, if you would rather go that route.
 
Last edited:
Muley

I hate to admit it never occurred to me that that is a separate
part.

Sounds very doable. My forehead is getting flat and reddened
from slapping it with my palm.

;)
 
Muley Gil said:
" .45ACP probably exceeds proof loads in this gun. (And in other .455's, especiallly older Webleys."

I doubt that, myself. There isn't much difference between a 2nd Model HE in .455 and a 1917.

I don't think I'd do the Pinnacle conversion on a .455, because, IMHO, it would remove too much metal from the ejector star.

I have repaired revolvers with this problem (cylinder sliding to the rear) by tapping the frame lug out slightly with a punch. It generally doesn't take much.
Click to expand...



It is my understanding that because the govt. required it, and was actually running S&W during the war, the cylinders for M-1917 revolvers were heat-treated. They were also originally intended for .45 ACP pressures! I'm not at all sure that other S&W guns were being heat-treated, although Colt had been doing that for some time.

Many of the .455's and ALL of the Triple-Lock ones were made before the M-1917 went into production.

Look for the OP's topic about .45-.455 pressures in the ammo section of the board. And keep in mind that .455 velocities were some 200 FPS slower than .45ACP, although Dominion and (I think) British arsemals and Eley loaded .455 MK 1 (.455 Colt) to 700 FPS.

I think that most revolvers used in war then were employed against men within 50 yards, usually much closer. That is why the .455 proved effective. Also, the bullet shape of the MK II load tended to tumble in flesh, creating a greater wound volume. There were "Manstopper" versions of the .455, issued primarily in India. These had full wadcutter and HP wadcutter shapes. They were reported to be very effective, even against fanatic Muslim extremists along the Afghan frontier. (Recall that India was then British territory. There was not yet a separate Pakistan.)

Personally, I wouldn't risk using commercial .45 ammo, and handloads should be toned down and use bullets meant for the .45 Colt, about .455-.456 diameter. Lead bullets will better fit the bore, if soft enough.

T-Star
P.S. I paid $31.58 for my S&W MK II in the 1960's. Try to beat that deal now! It was in NRA VG Plus condition, too.
I eventually sold it because I could never find new ammo.
 
The part is called a frame lug. Part number at Numrich for the 1917 is 374260.

I have never heard that the cylinder for the 1917 was heat treated. The first reference to that I can find for heat treatment is for the .44 Special 2nd models about 1920. That is from the SCS&W.
 
I have never heard any mention of 1917 cylinders being heat treated.
S&W had never heat treated up to then. The US Gov't was screaming for production, not innovation.
The plant was not seized until Aug, 1918.
 
"Part number at Numrich for the 1917 is 374260."

Thanks for finding the part number, Burt.

A 1917 lug will be a bit too thick, but may be the only pre WW II lug that you can find. The '17 lug can be filed back (carefully) until it fits.
 
handejector said:
I have never heard any mention of 1917 cylinders being heat treated.
S&W had never heat treated up to then. The US Gov't was screaming for production, not innovation.
The plant was not seized until Aug, 1918.
Click to expand...


McHenry & Roper, Smith & Wesson Hand Guns, page 221, Cylinder was heat -treated from No. 1.

The MK II Hand Ejector .455 is covered immediately above the M-1917, and DOES NOT state that the cylinder for it was heat-treated.

They also state that the cylinder for the M&P .38, fourth change, was heat-treated from No. 316,648. However, the date when that gun was made wasn't given.


T-Star
 
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