Pre-War Outdoorsman Short Action Pics Inside Edition

keith44spl

keith44spl

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First off, I don't want this to turn in to some kind of debate over
defacing vintage collectables, etc…When these type of experiments
were going on these were not collectable firearms. So, let us not go there.

I pulled the side plate for a few more pictures…As you can see, the original
hammer pivot stud was removed from the inside…BTW the threaded portion
below the thumb release remains intact and visiable from the outside of the frame.

IMG_0025-1.jpg


I did not make it by the tool shop today to use the micro-scope nor the cordax
to measure the distance the hammer pivot pin was re-located, but looks to be about .060 on the X as well as the Y axis.

IMG_0035-1.jpg


Also, note the insertion of the thrust bearing into the body of the hammer (extends out each side of hammer) to center
up it's travel along the "raceway" within the frame. * Look closely at the side plate and you can see the ever so slight mark of contact. Pretty short arc of throw as well.

IMG_0025-1-1.jpg


IMG_0028.jpg


I learn somethin' new everyday or remember something I had forgotten…
Jest wonder who dun it?

Su Amigo,
Dave
 
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Fascinating

Dave....Thanks for the photos of the work done to convert the gun to short throw. It fascinates me that the artisan/gunsmiths who did this made it all work. I guess it was cheaper or easier at that time to do all the handwork to convert than buy a new gun.

Today, anyone who even suggested such a project would have SP up their *** so fast telling them how stupid the idea was, it would never happen. Some of us just do things because we can!
 
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Dave, I believe your short action work may have been done by J.D. Buchanan. I have seen a few that where done by King, and if I remember correctly their version was a little different. I think Buchanan use to advertise short action conversions in American Rifleman in the 1940's.

I hope this helps,

Tim.
 
Dave, thanks for the pics. Those are some of the most informative images I have run across in months.

I need to go tear open both a long action and short action revolver now to make my own dimension comparisons. I thought the short action moved the hammer stud up and forward 1/16", not up and back. I certain see now why the back of the lower hammer body had to be reconfigured, given the new pivot point. But this looks like it would make for a longer throw as I think of the hammer movement, not a shorter one. Clearly I need to think about this.
 
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S&WIowegan said:
Dave....Thanks for the photos of the work done to convert the gun to short throw. It fascinates me that the artisan/gunsmiths who did this made it all work. I guess it was cheaper or easier at that time to do all the handwork to convert than buy a new gun.

Today, anyone who even suggested such a project would have SP up their *** so fast telling them how stupid the idea was, it would never happen. Some of us just do things because we can!
Click to expand...

(Your not suggesting that this is outside SP's venue, are you now?)


One must remember, this "work" may have been before the birth of the factory short action as we know it today (post-war era).

So, very well could have been a little R & D in someone else's shop...Or not. ;)

Su Amigo,
Dave
 
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DCWilson said:
Dave, thanks for the pics. Those are some of the most informative images I have run across in months.

I need to go tear open both a long action and short action revolver now to make my own dimension comparisons. I thought the short action moved the hammer stud up and forward 1/16", not up and back. I certain see now why the back of the lower hammer body had to be reconfigured, given the new pivot point. But this looks like it would make for a longer throw as I think of the hammer movement, not a shorter one. Clearly I need to think about this.
Click to expand...


Well David,

I'm at a loss here as well...Might be magic :D

double click on pic for the vid


Ol' McGivern could've broke a land speed record with this'n :eek:
Su Amigo,
Dave
 
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keith44spl said:
Well David,

I'm at a loss here as well...Might be magic :D

double click on pic for the vid


Ol' McGivern could've broke a land speed record with this'n :eek:
Su Amigo,
Dave
Click to expand...

Seeing is believing! Thanks for additional evidence.

I'll figure this out eventually. Clearly I just have wrong ideas in my head about the geometry of the situation.
 
Timb1 said:
Dave, I believe your short action work may have been done by J.D. Buchanan. I have seen a few that where done by King, and if I remember correctly their version was a little different. I think Buchanan use to advertise short action conversions in American Rifleman in the 1940's.

I hope this helps,

Tim.
Click to expand...



Tim,

Thanks for the lead....

Dave
 
The identifying evidence, which I had seen before, is the "notch"
on the rear of the hammer. Its not really a notch, but rather the
boundary of the re-contouring of the lower curved part of the back
of the hammer.

Relocating the hammer stud in this fashion causes two different
things to happen. One is that as the hammer now has a rearward
movement as it is cocked; ie, as it rotates it is also moving rearward.
The second is that, because of this rearward motion, it releases
earlier; ie, the double-action sear falls off the trigger sooner, and this
is what really gives it the shorter throw.

I would presume this was done before the factory developed the
short-throw action. King Gunsight was the one who pioneered the
larger adjustable sights, and the wider hammer spur - he called it
double-cockeyed. He, and/or perhaps others, developed the idea of
the shorter throw.

Even target stocks were not developed by the factory. Many of the
well-known shooters of the 1910's and 1920's were augmenting the
small relatively-narrow stocks with additional material. Ed McGivern
figured out that Kearserge was making a grip that fit his hand
properly, and thus developed the McGivern model Kearserge stock.

The LAPD were the real modern innovators of target stocks. Its
debateable who was first - it appears to have been Walter Stark, one
of the LAPF armorers. His deciples (sic?) like Farrant, Hogue, and
many others at LAPD really pushed the developement of target stocks.

We are all admirers of the factory, but a lot of the really innovative
ideas came from elsewhere.

Mike Priwer
 
Mike, thanks for putting the movements into words. After thinking about Dave's video I suspected the sear had to have been releasing the hammer sooner than it would have in the unmodified condition, and your narrative nails that down for me.
 
Thanks all for a great post. I'm still wrestling with the geometry - I know I'm close! Mike, I especially appreciate the history behind the changes.

Best Regards,

Jerry
 
Well Boys,

Without getting' into all that ol' geometry of compound angles and all them tangent theorems and such doin's used
along the the way to re-position the pivot point of the hammer's radial arc of travel.


Let just use Mike's simplified answer and say when moving the center point upward and outward
on the x & y we give the DA a head start and hence a shorter lock time.

As my ol' trig professor like to tell us boys, "Ya gotta keep that angler dangler perpendicular to the triangular…"

All I can say is, she shur nuff works, each and every time and that puts a Copenhagen smile on this ol' cowboy's face.

Su Amigo,
Dave
 
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I never could understand the geomoetry of the actions like that with that type of work, all I know is that it appears that it is slicker than snot on a brass door knob. Like I said, perfect for taking out in the woods for game.
 
David, and others

The curved rear portion of the backside of the hammers is actually
the partial circumference of a circle, whose center is the hammer
stud. When the hammer is retracted, its rear surface flows smoothly
past the frame, and maintains a constant distance ( very small ) from
the frame edge.

With the hammer stud position moved, the "true" rotating circumference
of the rear of the hammer changes, and so it needs to be reground,
so that it can clear the frame edge. This was one of the changes to
that hammer, and that notch is the end of the re-contouring.

I referred to this as the hammer moving slightly rearward. Clearly
its rotating about its relocated stud, but that old semi-circular
grind on its backside will now impact the frame, as the hammer is
pulled backward, thus making it appear to be moving rearward.

Regards, Mike Priwer
 
Thanks Mike,

It looks like she was set up on a cutter grinder to preform that little task on the hammer clearance right there...
Cause she's sure nuff dead nuts all the way thru that little conundrum of an arc :D

I guess the sixty four dollar question is not so much how, but who dun it...

Su Amigo,
Dave
 
Group:
I think King had a drop in short throw hammer kit.
I have a S&W King Super Target that had a short throw hammer before I bought it, someone switched it out it is now a long throw.
At one time this gun was owned by Ray B. and then it had a short throw hammer.
DBWesson
 
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