"Pre 27"
"Pre 18"

"Pre 29"??

Masterpiece. Aaah,, there,now I've said it.

Combat Magnum. WoW, what a NAME.

Outdoorsman. K-22 Combat Masterpiece. THE 357 Magnum.

44 MAGNUM. How about 44 Military. (The finest large caliber revolver in the World.)

Before anybody PRE'd our Smith and Wesson revolvers they had
names.
I know in the standard catalog they 'pre' us, but do you have to too??

I'D like to propose right now that all you cats give your revolvers
their proper names and when describing them call them as such.

Please, stop pre'ing your named revolvers to death.
Don't be a lazy typer, and give them the dignity they deserve.

AnY Body else feel this way too??

From an old guy who believes a Smith revolver should never have
been given a number at all.......

Allen Frame (pre AF, if you really want to tick me off)


My 44 Military.





A 357 Magnum. 1950. Long before model numbering.

__________________
NRA cert.instructor&R.S.O.

That's a great looking pre-M21 and pre-M27.

__________________
Dick

Did you learn anger management in PRE-school? haha

I changed my "Pre-27" post to make Allen happy.

I bet he hates

"Battle Tank"
"Acoustic Guitar"
"Standard Transmission"

__________________
Buy American
Vote Responsibly

Sometimes its about the language of the land - whats popularly spoken, should be spoken, in order to make more effective communication. This is similiar to 45 colt vs 45 long colt. Occasionally, in my experience, when asking for 45 colt ammo, I was handed 45 acp because the guy thought "45 acp = 45 automatic colt pistol" or perhaps, many people have a colt 45 auto or who knows.

But...

Since we are collectors, and on the S&W forum, we should refer to them by the actual correct name given the time period of each gun and not the novice nicknames given to the guns that were before model numbers by people who collect other guns or by people who are new to guns. Some of the old names, in fact most, were better than just a number name as AF pointed out.

Here is my pre - .....here is my newly acquired S&W model 44 magnum.

To me, "Pre-XX" means post-war until model numbers. It is easy to type and remember. I'm not lazy. I'm an engineer. We are efficient...haha.

"pre" never got under my skin, but i never refer to my one and only K22 as a pre 17, and i sure don't drive a Prius!

Take a deep breath Allen....."goooooosfraba".

As I said in an earlier post: "Pre" is a widely accepted term which is used in factory letters by Mr. Roy Jinks, it is a term which is used in the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, and it is a term that is used among most of the collectors here. It denotes a Post-War gun before the model designations. It automatically allows one to realize an approximate year and variation for the gun.

A Registered Magnum is a "357 Magnum" and a 1950 Pre-27 is also a "357 Magnum" but they are very different guns.

If it is good enough for Roy Jinks and for the Standard Catalog, it is good enough for me. By the way, Mr. Jinks, Mr. Supica, and Mr. Nahas, Allen just called you lazy
__________________

I wish I had a Prius. I'm so tired of buying gas all the time. Or for that matter I wish I had any non model number marked nice S&W besides my beater that has been so poorly cared for...



Bad nickel job and on hammer and trigger, badly scratched on two sides of cylinder, nickel peeling off everywhere, she came with fake pearl pimp grips, and I still love her. But I will find her a big brother at some point.

+1 on what he said as I couldn't agree more

I like the "Pre" terms. I see the term as more precise and useful to collectors. For example, I often see people on auction sites describing their "Combat Magnum" they have for sale, only to find that it is a 19-5. Using the term Combat Magnum, I usually think of a gun with no model marking (commonly called a pre-19, haha). The "pre-model" designation immediately narrows the date range of the gun being described. So, I see this as a term developed by collectors that is more precise in describing when a gun left the factory.

I do agree hat the term "44 Magnum" sounds more classy than "Pre-29".

__________________
Kevin Cowherd
SWCA #2271

Funny. When I first came here to ask questions about the big N frame .357 I saw at my local dealer, I told me it was a "Pre-27." Being basically dumb, I figured that was what everybody called them. Since it was apparently made before model numbers, it seemed reasonable to me.

I had no idea I'd step on anyone's toes.

Next thing you know I'll have to stop calling a revolver a "pistol."

__________________
John 3:16 .

Pre doesn't bother me nearly as much as "no dash."

Gawd, that's irritating.

The problem is there is no universally agreed language and even if there was there is no way to get every person on board with it. Newbies would still use the wrong terminology and many older folks would stick with the familiar terms they have always used and ignore the correct verbiage.

[QUOTE=SaxonPig;135906625]Pre doesn't bother me nearly as much as "no dash."

QUOTE]

I completely agree. It makes me think they have something special that should have had a dash but it was magically removed or forgot to be stamped. It's like thinking there exists a pre-27(or pre model numbered but post war 357 for Allen), 27, 27 no dash, 27-1, etc...

I just call my pre 17, k-22 outdoorsman the .22. I am very lazy. My great-grandfathers 1924 engraved M&P is the .38. My Brazillian 1937 1917 is the .45.

__________________
Jim
Many K and N Frames

How does it go? Goosefrabaaaaa,,,.

O.K. However it comes to be, I'll get carried along.


I have received my first official reprimand here on the forum.

With apologies to Dick King for any inflammatory remark.

Regards
Allen

__________________
NRA cert.instructor&R.S.O.

I found your post to be non-inflammatory, and turned out to be pretty interesting. Considering my exalted level of ignorance, though,
I just have to follow everybody else's lead. "gooooosfraba"???
TACC1

Here's my pre-Model 40....

John

__________________
- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Actually, I think this has been a good and informative post. I always feel that I can never stop learning.

__________________
Kevin in Oregon

While I'm normally a stickler for proper language I believe pre- and "no dash" are with us to stay. One way to look at it is that they are not "wrong names" just nick-names. There is nothing inherently wrong with nick-names.

If we outlaw "pre" as improper, where does it end?

• Were the original .357 magnums, originally called "Registered"?
• I also see "Transitional Model" used around here a bit. Did they really name them that?
• Do we really expect people to but "Question about my Model of 1953 .22/32 kit gun" in thier post titles?
• Are we going to stop calling everything that has a "v" prefix a "Victory"?
• Do we stop using the term "M&P" in referring to revovers ?
• Are we going to correct everyone who uses the term "grips"?
• As far as I know their were no models with "pre-war" in their name?

As to "no dash". It just saves time and effort. The majority of people assume when a "dash number" is missing is is not because there is not one, but because the OP did not realize it was important to post; causing the inevitable question "what dash number is it."

Of course we could use "pre-dash" instead

Actualy I think that is a pre-Model 332.

If it helps people understand, especially new collectors, I don't see the big deal. I don't see a need to nitpick people to death when they are all excited and just found a "pre Model 10" at a gun show and 20 people are biting their head off "It's an M&P!"

Every hobby has it's bugaboos, and firearm collecting is near the top of the list, up there with car guys. And then, each niche of firearm collecting has people at different levels of expertise. I just started buying a few older Colt DA .38's like Official Police revolvers, and I will not know as much as people who have been buying and shooting Colts for 40 years. Just because we eat, sleep and breathe S&W revolvers, and have read the SC of S&W cover to cover 50 times doesn't mean the newer S&W fan knows all of this.

Maybe I'll start calling my Model 10's "post M&P's"

Since I am also a Ruger nut, some of the guys at the Ruger forum get picky with the model designations, I would be like "My 4" stainless full lug fixed sight .38 GP-100" and someone is always like "You mean a KGPF-341?!?" and I'm like "sure, that works too"

Actualy it is not an M&P it is a ".38 Military & Police Model of 1905 - 4th Change"

The “No dash” issue… the only reason I say that is since I found a model 28 I have been asked by several people what dash it is. It just seems like the easiest way to jump to the point. If you just say 28 then you are open for the barrage of questions that simply saying 28 no dash can answer. Personally I think it sounds funny just like the whole “Pre” issue, but again it conveys much information by saying very little. That is the only reason I do either on. But then again, I have many speech related problems. Seriously? Really? No way! Y’all. I have the bad habit of repeating them all after hearing them for far too long.

I don't care to much for that kinda language...All this pre-model this or that...

An ol' pard of mine's reply, when asked if he was a ex-Ranger? "Hell fire son, I ain't no ex nuth'ng!"

So, with that in mind this ain't no pre-nuth'ng either...

44 HE 3rd


No, I don't care what you call it...Just don't tell me 'bout it.

Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I didn't know there were other words for "grips". What are they?
"Receiver panels"? "Decorative/Combat Receiver Panels"? "Handle Covers"?
Gerry

They're called 'stocks' in the S&W world. They go on the grip frame (to confuse matters more).

LOLOL....!! +1

__________________
SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

Whatever you pre-fer.

I for one disagree that citing the language in the SCSW (any edition) or the language used in Jink's letters should be the end all for this debate. The letters and books are written for the novice to the expert but if they're good for novice collectors, they cannot be written in 'expert' language. Now not to say that its hard to understand, that is the model names before the numbers, but on the other hand, the books and letters are written as such that anyone, collector, shooter, hunter, found it in the attic, inherited grandpaps guns, found this at a yard sale for $20, etc can understand. Knowing a S&W blued 44 mag is either a model 29 or a 'pre model 29' is much easier to remember than remembering a separate pre 1957 model name for each gun. I know that many of us have memorized most of the pre 57 and post 57 model names, but not everyone gets into these as much as some and many of us, like myself, collect other types of guns even though collecting S&W is a collecting world all its own.

When I got the SCSW 3rd, I hardly knew S&Ws and now that I see how much there is even more to know, I pretty much feel the same as I did although I know more than I did. In other words, the SCSW is a great book for novices because of how its written and the simple terms for different things.

The higher level S&W collectors, authors and historians can't assume that when they publish anything that the person reading it will definitely be a knowledgeable collector. They write so that anyone can understand, therefor, citing their wordage for published articles should not effect how an experienced collector should refer to models as.

Aw jeez, we all know dey are gun's!

__________________
Stay safe people!

SP,

When I use the "no dash" or other post script addended to say, my original 66, it is because if the writer just says, "Mod 66." he could mean any of the Model 66 series. Specifying that there is no dash emphasizes that the reference is to the original type, without change, so there is no question. I guess I could say "dash nought" or "pre-dash" but that would be objectionable as well, I fear!

Green Frog (the original, no dash! )

66 mod 0 it is then...

Although some might call this worn blaster a Pre-War .357, it actually isn't. It´s shipping date of May 12, 1942 puts it into the Wartime .357 category I'd think. So it isn't "Pre". At least, I don't think it really is. Maybe.

More data on this revolver (SHAMELESS PROMOTION of the thread) under the thread:
Penultimate Pre Postwar Magnum is in Mexico!

That one there is pretty pre- alright. Very pre- actually, it is. It could be said to be pre-pre-.

Being probably the newest member of the SWCA, I am humbled and a little intimidated by the level of knowledge here. I owned my first S&W revolver in about 1976, and have owned many more over the years, but until I joined this forum, I had no idea how much I didn't know. I have been calling my revolvers pre and no dash for quite a while now because I read posts on this forum referring to revolvers by those titles. As far as never calling a revolver by the term pre or no dash because at the time it was manufactured there would be no the knowledge that a -1 or a model number would come along raises a question in my head. I believe no one called World War I by that name until at least 20 or more years after it was over because no one knew WWII was going to come along until at least Sept. 1, 1939, but sometime after WWII was fought the most accepted term for the war that was fought between 1914 and 1918 was World War I. So, looking at these revolvers and using backward chronology, I really don't see the problem in using the terms pre or no dash to best describe what period that specific revolver is from. But, I am probably the newest member of the SWCA and I know I have a lot to learn still.

^^Well said and welcome aboard.

phenson,


...here, here! Historically, language is liquid. Whatever it takes to communicate clearly works for me.

Jerry

My Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail is a "pre-CZ"! Can that be put in the proverbial pipe and smoked? --I love a good debate, 'specially when someone is on their ear! Someone pm when the valium kicks in.

__________________
Go big or stay home

Allen Frame (pre AF, if you really want to tick me off)

Technically your dad would be pre AF,
you are AF no dash and your son is AF dash 1.
Had to go there.
Peace.

What's in a name?

38 MIlitary and Police.

K22 Outdoorsman. K 22 Masterpiece. K 22 Combat Masterpiece.

My 357 Magnum made in 1956).

Names gentlemen, names.

44 Magnum 5 screw or, 4 screw.

Combat Magnum. Say it again. This time let it roll off your tongue.
Combat Magnum. Named long before anything 'Combat' was cool.

Dave,, I love that 44 Hand Ejector 3rd. Beautiful.

Just a matter of respect for the marque.

I just FEEL that saying 'pre' anything is just plain laziness.
As in too lazy to type in a description.

I have many model numbered guns. Probably my favorite are
my model 25s' in 45 Colt. They are just model 25s any time
of the day.
I do wish they were called 'Smith and Wesson Combat 45s"or some
such thing. But the truth is they are just plain old model 25-5s,
or 25-7s or whatever.

I am only saying,, if it has a name, can we just call it by that name?..

Hmmm?

Thank you all.

Allen Frame-2

__________________
NRA cert.instructor&R.S.O.

S&W still used of the names of their revolvers and pistols after model numbers were assigned. The All Model Circular of 1959 lists 44 MAGNUM, Model 29, ".357" Magnum, Model 27, etc. Some of the names were registered with th U. S. Patent Office (44 MAGNUM, 41 MAGNUM, ".357" Magnum, ".357" Combat Magnum). The name was, and is, always important to the company. I have a poster from around 1963 that shows a photo of S&W's complete handgun line at the time and it lists the name and number for each gun.

Part of the difficulty is the hobby of collecting S&Ws has grown so fast in the last few years (mainly due to the internet) it is impossible to learn everything (like names, etc.) that many of us have learned over many years of collecting and studying S&Ws. The term "Pre-Model" has been around since at least the late 70s and is at least partially descriptive of what a revolver is. I think it is here to stay.

Bill

Old S&W written documents use terms like stocks/grips, yoke/crane and checked/checkered. (/ meaning as opposed to.) Much of this may have been a purposeful effort to be different from competitors like COLT.

However, if you look at factory letters, even the S&W historian has succumbed to popular terms calling stocks grips. Most of the 2 digit model parts lists use the older terms above, however, the 3 digit parts lists use the later. So trends change.

Kind of reminds me of the old "potato" "potatoe" dialog. For those that don't like the term model 66 pre dash, perhaps we could call it a "government mandated model # 66 before the first variation" instead???

__________________
James Redfield
LM #497

you say tomato, i say tomahto
you eat potato and i eat potahto
tomato, tomahto, potato, potahto
let's call the whole thing off

but oh, if we call the whole thing off then we must part
and oh, if we ever part then that might break my heart

Fred Astaire, 1937


"Shall We Dance"

Here's my "Pre-15" Combat Masterpiece.

I don't wish to use the pre- designation when referring to Smith & Wesson revolvers made prior to the assignment of the model number. If it takes a pre- to affix a mental picture of the revolver being discussed for the folks who may not have been exposed to all things Smith & Wesson for very long then so be it.

This is the core of the argument as the picture below illustrates. The "pre" and "no dash" terms have evolved as a handy shorthand to describe individual specimens. What's the problem with that?

Attached Images

box.jpg (148.5 KB, 19 views)