Need some help figuring out which pistol I have and finding replacement hammer

[milkman]

I have an early hand ejector that was Grandpa's "squirrel" gun. I always thought it was .38 Special until someone informed me otherwise a couple of weeks ago. The gun hasn't been fired for 50 years, but I'm sure Dad used .38 Special rounds in it.

I dropped it several years ago and the tip of the hammer broke off. I recently decided to try to repair or replace it, so I started searching the internet and found some info, but the more info I find, the more I need. I've taken several photos, but will probably need to start another thread to post them all.

The last patent date on the barrel is Dec.17.01. It has what looks like a 4-digit serial with another mark in front of the number. Or it's a 5th digit that looks like a 0 or 9.

Can anyone pin down a range of production dates or which change this serial number would fit into?

More details in another thread.

Thanks,
Rich

[milkman]

In trying to find some info about my old hand ejector so I could fix or replace the broken hammer, I found an article in Wikipedia that had two photos. The first is labeled Model 10 Original Lockwork, and the second is labeled Fifth Change Lock.

I knew my pistol wasn't a "Fifth Change," and I found some parts for sale on a couple of web sites. There were a few hammers that appeared to be the hammer in the Fifth Change photo, and a few that looked like something different.

To try to figure out if they would fit, I removed the side plate from my pistol. I was surprised to see that the action looked like a combination of the two shown in Wikipedia. Most surprising to me, the trigger return slide has a Feb 06 patent date.

Anyone have any ideas about production, model, change, etc?

More in next thread.

Thanks,
Rich

[milkman]

While trying to find a hammer to replace a broken one, the caliber of my old hand ejector came into question. I always thought it was a .38 Special, and shot it a few times back in the 50's.

I was recently informed that .38 S&W Special is not the same thing. The barrel is stamped 38 S&W Special, US Service CTG's.

The cylinder appears to have been drilled out, or do they all look like that? A .38 Special cartridge fits perfectly, with no binding. I included a couple of photos to show the fit and depth.

I have no intention of firing this pistol again, not even with .38 S&W Specials. But now I wonder if the .38 S&W will fit properly. Can anyone answer that question?

My last question, can anyone help me with a source for the correct hammer? I bought one yesterday that appears to be the Fifth Change hammer, thinking that I can file the bottom down to the correct configuration. I'm not fixing the gun to shoot it, I just want it to look correct and to function properly.

Thanks for all your help, and I apologize for the long-winded posts.

Rich

[DCWilson]

That's a model of 1905, First Change. It probably shipped in 1906 or 1907. The first-change guns were the first ones in the M&P line to have the familiar rebound slide mechanism instead of the pivoting arm driven by a second flat spring mounted in the grip frame.

The "U.S Service Ctg" does not mean .38 S&W; it refers to the .38 Colt round that the government adopted a few years earlier and found too light for reliable military purposes in some Philippine encounters. The .38 Special is in essence a longer version of the same cartridge. Within a few years the .38 Special became standard for both companies, and the Colt round became history.

A good welder should be able to put the hammer back together for you. Otherwise, check out oldwestgunsmith.com, Jack First in South Dakota, or Poppert's gun parts in your search for a replacement hammer. I speculate that a no-change hammer will be slightly different from later 1905 hammers because of the interplay between hammer and rebound slide in the later changes. But I don't know if that will make the later hammers unusable in your gun. Maybe one could be modified to fit.

[milkman]

Thanks for the help with the serial no. Even with bifocals, a magnifying glass, and zooming in on the photo, I couldn't tell if that first digit was a 9 or not.

I figured that with the 01 patent date on the barrel (read my next thread about Grandpa's "squirrel" gun) it would not be a 1905 model. However, that makes sense, considering the 06 patent date on the trigger rebound slide.

So since I have that action, does that make this a 1905 "first change" gun?

Rich

[DCWilson]

Yes, first change. I was in the process of modifying my response when you posted yours, so questions and answers are showing up out of order. A moderator may combine your threads for you so that you won't get replies in different places.

Nice gun. I got one of these at an auction not long ago and like it a lot.

[walnutred]

DC, I've never noticed the dual caliber markings before. Was that very common? I understand WHY a US Service ctg would be safe in the 38 Special, just never noticed that particular marking.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by DCWilson

The "U.S Service Ctg" does not mean .38 S&W; it refers to the .38 Colt round that the government adopted a few years earlier and found too light for reliable military purposes in some Philippine encounters. The .38 Special is in essence a longer version of the same cartridge. Within a few years the .38 Special became standard for both companies, and the Colt round became history.

So does this mean the .38 Special is the correct round? Or am I limited to the .38 Colt?

[milkman]

Originally Posted by DCWilson

Nice gun. I got one of these at an auction not long ago and like it a lot.

Thanks. I like this gun, too, in spite of it's rough looks. Family legend has it that it was owned by desperado in 1910-1930 Oklahoma. It's been on the shelf for about 50 years and has always (since I first saw it) looked like this.

I'll pass it on down one of these days, but I think I'll start looking for one that's shootable.

Rich

[DCWilson]

Originally Posted by walnutred

DC, I've never noticed the dual caliber markings before. Was that very common? I understand WHY a US Service ctg would be safe in the 38 Special, just never noticed that particular marking.

You can find the double-cartridge markings on M&Ps in the 1899, 1902 and early 1905 model configurations, but the company was not consistent in its marking practices. Some are labeled only for .38 Special. My impression is that the references to the Colt cartridge were gone from S&Ws by 1909 or so.

Since it is hard to tell first change from second change guns at a glance, and since there seems to be some overlapping serial number range between them, you might expect to see the US Service CTG reference on second changes, too. Such references seem to be missing from the third change 1905s.

[DCWilson]

Originally Posted by milkman

So does this mean the .38 Special is the correct round? Or am I limited to the .38 Colt?

Both rounds are correct for this gun, but .38 special ammo is available and .38 long colt is not, except from specialty producers or unless you reload. You can shoot modern ammo in this gun, but keep to standard loads or lighter match target loads.

Actually, this was a pretty hefty gun for squirrels, unless they came big in your grandfather's neck of the woods.

[red9]

Milkman,

.38 Special is the correct round, and is a better fit than the .38 Colt (US Service Cartridge). However, given the age of the piece, I would suggest sticking to light (wadcutter or target) loads with lead bullets. Enjoy!

Bob

[mikepriwer]

If I were you, I'd explore getting the hammer repaired, since you have
the tip. People like the Chicoines can get welded back on, and the
have the hammer re-case-colored. This would be a good option, but
it will probably not look original; the case coloring on the trigger
won't match, because of its age. It does keep the gun all original,
and I think that is important.

Be very careful about filing. More than likely, if you try to install a
later hammer, it won't work right with the existing trigger, and there
will be a temptation to file on both the hammer and trigger. This will
mess up everything. There were numerous minor changes to the
hammer and trigger over the period of 1905 to 1940, and you almost
need to replace both together, to get things to work right. Even then,
if there are subtle differences in the stud placement, things won't
work right.

Mike Priwer

[milkman]

Originally Posted by DCWilson

Actually, this was a pretty hefty gun for squirrels, unless they came big in your grandfather's neck of the woods.

That's another part of the family "legend." Dad said that he had seen Grandpa aim one-handed, arm out-stretched, and knock squirrels out of trees.

Really glad to know that .38 Special is the correct caliber. I won't shoot it, but I will get rid of the +P's I had for another pistol.

Thanks for the info regarding repairs. I'll try to get that done.

Rich

[John34]

Milkman,
I have a similar problem. Did you try and alter the later model hammer to fit the older gun?
John

[milkman]

I have two other hammers, one of which was a very close match but had a smaller pivot hole. I drilled that out so it would fit, and it's "workable," but the parts jam up occasionally.

After more research and discussions, what I've learned is that the parts assembly, i.e., hammer, trigger, rebound slide, etc., from more recent models may work. The entire assembly should be replaced rather than individual parts. Any input from the experts on the forum would be greatly appreciated here.

I also started wondering, will parts from a .32 HE work in a .38 HE? I realize the cylinder and barrel are different because of the bore size, but what about the internal parts of the action? It seems to me that if two different but similar things are being manufactured more or less side by side, at least some of the internal parts would be identical. Anybody know if that's true?

I've ordered a book that should help (hopefully) with parts identification - Kuhnhausen's "The S&W Revolver: A Shop Manual."

Rich

[mikepriwer]

Unless you are trying to teach yourself gun-smithing, you are wasting
a lot of time and money. Send the gun to Dave Chicoine, and let him
fix it for you. That is what gunsmiths do - they fix guns.

The underlying problem here is that these guns were all individually
fit by very skilled craftsmen. While the parts were mass-produced, the
guns were not; all the parts were hand-fitted by fitters. This is why
the barrel, cylinder, extractor, frame, sideplate, grips, and yoke are all
serial-numbered to each other. After the soft-fitting, they were
sent to the bluing department, where they were blued in batches, that
consisted of like parts from other guns. Then the parts were returned
to hard-fitting, where all the parts for one serial number were brought
back together, and finally fitted into an assembled revolver.

This is the process that you are stepping into the middle of, when
you try to replace a hammer with one that is probably not even of the
correct period. There are a whole series of minor changes, over the
years, that causes later parts to not fit earlier assemblies.

Mike Priwer

[milkman]

Originally Posted by mikepriwer

If I were you, I'd explore getting the hammer repaired, since you have
the tip. People like the Chicoines can get welded back on, and the
have the hammer re-case-colored.

Mike, after your previous post (above) I did contact Dave Chicoine and received the following response: "Sorry, but we do not have the hammer you need in stock at this time and I do not repair them.

We may be able to help though; we have maintained a "Parts Finder Service" for old S&W parts since 1976 and we have had very good luck finding rare old parts for hundreds of folks. If you like, I will be happy to add your name and needs to my list. All I ask from you is that you please let me know if you find what you are looking for in the meantime elsewhere so we can take you name off the list."

I asked him to add my name to his list, but as of yet have not heard anything. I don't expect him to come up with anything overnight. After all, I broke this hammer 25 years ago, and I think it might take months or years of active searching to find the right replacement. You might want to check with him regarding the work he does.

In the meantime I have contacted other gunsmiths and talked to them about parts, etc. There's a local "gunsmith" where I live and I have talked to him, but he impressed me so much that I wouldn't take any gun to him for cleaning, let alone repairs.

If these internal parts are so precisely fitted that only one set of parts will fit one gun, that would be useful to know. I think that's unlikely, but if you know otherwise, I'd appreciate that information. What I have learned is that there are various improvements whose assemblies might fit. I'm willing to go to the effort and expense to try to determine that.

If you know that set or sets of parts fitted to a certain range or ranges of serial numbers might work, I'd appreciate the info.

By the way, it's my time, and I've only "wasted" about $100 so far, including money spent for Kuhnhausen's manual.

Rich