Do a star on butt & diamond under barrel mean anything?

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k22fan

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Considering the purchase of a .38 special at a LGS got me wondering if I could learn anything about it from a couple of stamps on it. This 5 screw fixed sighted 5 inch K frame has serial number S942xxx on its butt, cylinder and barrel. I'm interested in a 5 pointed star on its butt equidistant between the widely separated S and numerals of its serial number and a diamond on the bottom of its barrel near the frame. The star is the same size as the S and numbers of the butt's serial number. The diamond is elongated parallel to the bore.

This M&P revolver is only in "shooter" condition due to the loss of all the case hardening colors on it hammer and bluing loss on its top strap. I suspect the damage is from blood that was left on it too long because the portions of the top strap lacking bluing are smooth and shinny and the hammer is dull gray without any hint of pitting. It should be a good shooter however. It has seen very few rounds judging from the lack of any loss of blueing on the recoil shield around its firing pin. The barrel and ejector rod look so perfect that I thought they might have been replaced until I saw the serial number on the barrel. That's what got me wondering about the stamps.
 
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The star is typically and indication of factory rework. This could be anything from a refinish to replacing a missing screw. The star was typically discontinued in the era around the late 50's or early 60's. The diamond symbol was used thereafter and with a refinish usually included a B or an N to indicate a blue or nickel refinish. It is also thought that the diamond means a major part replacement such as a cylinder or barrel.

I would suggest removing the stocks and check for date codes on the left side of the frame. Typically written as 4 56 for April 1956.

Since your gun has both a star and a diamond, it may mean both a refinish and a major part replacement. May have been done together or on different visits to the factory. Check under the stocks and let us know what the codes are if any. Photos would also help.
 
JSR III,
Thanks for the information. I remember something inside the diamond but not what was there. It may be a "B" for an old reblue. I did suspect a rebarreling was done because the barrel and ejector rod look so perfect and their bluing doesn't quite match the color of the rest on the gun, but would the factory have added the serial number to a replacement barrel? I can't photograph the revolver because it's at the store an hour away and I don't have a camera anyway. A couple of old factory repairs don't make a shooter any less desirable to me. I like the idea of a fresh barrel even though this one is very old. The store is asking $270 plus tax. I'm sure I couldn't talk them down more than 10%, maybe not at all. I don't see many S&Ws below $300 anymore. What do you think?
 
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That price isn't too bad for a shooter, especially if you can talk them out of tax. As long as you will enjoy owning the gun and it's in good mechanical condition, I'd say go for it.
 
When the factory replaced a serial numbered part like the barrel, they stamped the original # on it and the diamond to indicate a factory replacement. The date on grip frame and star added to the butt is just as JSR III said, to indicate factory work was done to the gun. Since the blue doesn't match I'd say that was the extent of the factory work unless there is also a diamond on the cylinder and behind the extractor star.
 
You know, we spend a lot of time looking at guns and the markings and even argue about it. But our focus is usually about if the gun is original or its undergone some rework. Then we discuss (a nice word) if the rework was factory, all factory, or shade tree.

What we don't really know even when we do agree on the gun not being original is what parts were worked on. Some seem to appear to have just been refinished. Other times we can see obviously new vintage parts on older guns. But we really don't do a good job of figuring out what the * or other marks mean. Sometimes we can even discover the * stamp going through the finish, indicating its not a refinish. But be darned if we can tell you it was the hammer or trigger that was replaced. We're just not that good.
 
Hondo44 said:
When the factory replaced a serial numbered part like the barrel, they stamped the original # on it and the diamond to indicate a factory replacement. The date on grip frame and star added to the butt is just as JSR III said, to indicate factory work was done to the gun. Since the blue doesn't match I'd say that was the extent of the factory work unless there is also a diamond on the cylinder and behind the extractor star.
Click to expand...

This looks like the most logical explanation to me.

H Richard said:
Since it's a 5" fixed sight barrel, it wouldn't surprise me if one of the trips back was to cut the original barrel down to 5".
Click to expand...

I'm not close enough to the store to check this, but if I recall correctly the sight is forged out of part of the barrel metal, not attached, so If an owner returned it for a different length, the barrel was replaced, not shortened. I think replacing a barrel would have been less expensive for the factory, and at least in later vintages of pre-10s, 5 inch barrels were a standard option. However, the only change of barrel length that would explain the new ejector rod would be replacing a 2 inch barrel.

While interesting, the factory repairs don't affect this revolvers value due to the more recent damage to its finish. Since the work was done by S&W, I'm confident that the repairs don't affect its utility either. I'm leaning towards buying it. Most people wouldn't notice the slight difference in bluing color on the replaced parts, and otherwise it looks like an original S&W including the diamond PC magnas. I've never owned a 5 inch K frame. Its less common barrel length and early vintage makes it more interesting than one of Bud's newer police surplus 4 inch 10s. A 10 from Bud's might arrive with no better finish, plus possibly some rust which I hate, very likely have non-original stocks and, even if the store won't budge on its price, cost $32 more OTD.

Thank-you to all who provided information.
Gil
 
k22fan said:
However, the only change of barrel length that would explain the new ejector rod would be replacing a 2 inch barrel.
Gil
Click to expand...

Hi Gil,

There's a more likely reason for the ejector rod change. Because the revolver is an early post war, 1948 or earlier, it falls in the category of what collectors call a Transitional Model. This simply means it has both pre war and post war parts and/or characteristics. One of the most common pre war parts still used after the war was the ejector rod with large knob which required a notch milled in the barrel (shown below). Therefore since the barrel was replaced after that period it didn't have the notch which nessitated changing the rod as well to the new post war straight style.
twotwos016.jpg

I agree with you that the gun you saw is worth having. I have a few guns that were factory reworked and that doesn't bother me in the least. I far prefer a factory reworked gun than a gunsmith worked-on gun. Shoot and enjoy it!
 
Hondo44 said:
Hi Gil,

There's a more likely reason for the ejector rod change. [...] since the barrel was replaced [with a newer style] it didn't have the notch which nessitated changing the rod as well to the new post war straight style.
[...]
Click to expand...

Bingo! We have narrowed our speculation down to the most likely scenario: an owner just had to have the unusual 5" barrel length. He probably passed some genes down to a forum member. ;)
 
k22fan said:
Bingo! We have narrowed our speculation down to the most likely scenario: an owner just had to have the unusual 5" barrel length. He probably passed some genes down to a forum member. ;)
Click to expand...

The 5" barrel was a pretty standard barrel length for this model but it still could have been changed from another length. If and when you get the gun, because it's so early it will be fun and interesting to check for other early characteristics such as: "Made In USA" only, or the 4 line address on the right side of the frame, the pin hole for a lanyard ring thru the grip frame, thumbpiece, short or long action hammer and diamonds on any other numbered parts, cylinder or extractor.
 
As you stated, there aren't many S&W's out there for under $300 unless they are complete rats. I don't see how you could go wrong for $270 plus tax. Just the fact that the gun was made just after WWII would be enough for me. I have a 5" M&P in the C 463XX range that was made just a couple of years later and a 6" in the S 9379XX that is a close relative of the one you are looking at.

I really like the look of the older long barrel blue S&W revolvers. I would say go for it.
 
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