Question re: 22/32 Model 22 Rim fire

Just found a 22/32 that looks exactly like the one on page 151 of Jinks book. It has about 50% or less finish. Grips well worn, rear sight is missing its slide...removing grips it appears to be a round frame with square back grips. Could not see serial number on grips. Serial number 2099XX too high to be a Bekeart. Correct? Year of production? What am I looking at and what should I offer as far as price is concerned?
Charlie

You are correct in saying it's too late to be a "real" Beakert model, but with the Beakert-style grips, it still has the same basic configuration. That SN puts it pretty late, but I don't have my SCSW handy to be more specific than that. I'm going to go out on a limb and say getting that sight repaired will probably be difficult and expensive... the job isn't that bad, but finding the part probably will be.

What about bore condition, chambers, and especially lock-up and function? These will also affect price, of course, and by the time finish is as sparse as you describe, mechanical condition takes on even more significance, IMHO. Is the asking price very attractive? If not, I'm afraid I'd have to pass. JMHO, YMMV.

Froggie

PS As a yardstick only, 6 months ago I bought essentially the same gun, only it had about 80% or more finish and the Regulation Police type grips in OK condition. The only problem was the bulged barrel. I paid $200 for the gun, another $130 for the barrel, and will probably have another $100 in work on it... that's getting on the verge of too much for what I'll end up with.

Green Frog It locks up tighly...barrel is good firing pin floats...I believe it would shoot the asking price which I know is negotiable is 345.
So maybe I should buy it?

What you are looking at is a 22/32 Heavy Frame Target or a .22 caliber revolver built on a .32 frame. This gun was the brainchild and built at the request of San Francisco gun dealer Philip Bekeart. He had apparently received several requests for a heavier frame .22 target pistol and thought that a 22 on a 32 frame would be just what target shooters of the day would want.

He approached S&W to have them build such a gun but they stated that they could not retool for it without a substantial order (1000 guns or more). So, Bekeart thinking that the model would be a great success, ordered the factory to build 1000 for him. The factory tooled up and began to produce the requested firearm and the initial run was about 1044 pieces. Bekeart took delivery of the first 292 and since they didn't fly off the shelves as he had thought, never requested any more. The balance of the 1044 were sold through S&W's normal dealers of the day.

The first 3000 guns that S&W built also had a number impressed into the bottom of the stocks up to and including 3,000.

So as far as Bekeartness is concerned, the purist collector of 22/32 HFT revolvers looks at the true Bekeart as being one of the first 292 shipped directly to Bekeart. This is followed by one of the first 1044 ordered by Bekeart but not shipped to him. (293 to 1044). This is followed by one of the first 3000 built with numbered stocks, followed by those built up until 1915 when the model was cataloged as a regular S&W production model. Then those built from 1915 (when cataloged) up until around 1935 when the chambers in the cylinder were recessed and finally those made from 1935 until end of production in 1941 when we went to war. A further subset of Bekeartness could be any gun shipped to Bekeart after the initial 292. I don't know if any were shipped to him after his initial delivery, however since the gun was in production for about 30 years, (1911-1941) it is possible that he ordered a few more.

The main problem, thanks to Smith & Wesson, is that there is supposedly no rhyme or reason as to serial numbers and the 3,000 numberd stocks. IIRC, there are no records that state which serial number got which numbered stock and they don't run sequentially with the serial numbers. I am not sure that Roy Jinks can even tell you in a letter if your numbered stocks came with your specific numbered gun.

I hope that helps.

charlies said:

Green Frog It locks up tighly...barrel is good firing pin floats...I believe it would shoot the asking price which I know is negotiable is 345.
So maybe I should buy it?

Click to expand...

If you look back at what I've posted about mine, I would say the asking price there is a little high... but it depends on how much room the seller has and how much he is willing to come down. With the issues you mention, I would hesitate to put much over $250 in it, knowing that the sight will have to be repaired and allowing for the cosmetic wear as you describe. The little I-frames just don't command the prices of their big brothers, at least not around here. I would be surprised if you found a sight blade for much under $50-75, and you would still have a very worn looking gun... great fun to shoot, but having little collector's appeal. Of course it's your money and your decision, but that doesn't sound like much of a deal to me for those reasons. As with all things, YMMV!

Froggie

A couple of footnotes:

First, a serial number around 210000 is not that late; this number would have been reached about 1914, just three years after the .22/32 Target was introduced.

Second, we tend to give credit to Phil Bekeart for twisting S&W's arm to make them introduce a .22 revolver with adjustable sights for the commercial market. Butever since I studied the model introductions by commercial competitors, I have thought that the more pressing reason involved Colt's introduction of the .22 Police Positive Target Revolver in 1910.

Colt and S&W always tracked each other's model introductions and responded with a countermarketing model before too much time had passed. Over the years the Colt .22 PP Target greatly outsold the S&W, but even with its smaller production and slower sales the S&W .22/32 remained a solid and high-quality response to the Colt challenge.

Froggie, I would have to politely disagree with you. I own 3 22/32 HFT's and the prices can go to the moon. A lot depends on how much the Seller thinks his gun is a "Bekeart" model. I have seen them go for over $1,300 with excellent condition and box.

A run of the mill "Bekeart" model will usually ask around $450 to $750. Real dogs are less and real gems are more. A "true Bekeart" (one of the first 292 shipped) will be right up there.

Actually David, the model was cataloged in 1915 at around serial number 160,000 so 210,000 would have been a little later. The first 1044 were in the range of 138,226 to 139,275 produced in 1911 or so. 384XXX was around 1923 so I would guesstimate that 210000 would have been hit around 1917 if I am dividing correctly.

Regarding the 292 actually shipped to Bekeart, the interesting thing is that the serial numbers of those span the entire range of the 1,044 made in that first production run. There's only one substantial gap (between 138980 and 139035) where none went to him, but otherwise he received guns sprinkled all the way from the second serial number (138227) right through to the last (139275). Note that the math also doesn't exactly work out, there are 1,050 numbers in the range, so six of those were either ultimately not used (scrapped?), or went out as another model.

JSR III said:

Actually David, the model was cataloged in 1915 at around serial number 160,000 so 210,000 would have been a little later. The first 1044 were in the range of 138,226 to 139,275 produced in 1911 or so. 384XXX was around 1923 so I would guesstimate that 210000 would have been hit around 1917 if I am dividing correctly.

Click to expand...

Jim, I don't argue with the early production stats, but I think the numbers for the second and later production runs have some peculiarities in their timing. I found a .22/32 with a 208xxx serial number that shipped in early 1914, and there are some numbered around 240xxx that went out in late 1916. I-frames in general, unclassified as to the caliber of the gun that would be built on them, were at 258000 in April of 1917, when the first .32 Regulation Police units came out of the assembly room.

A distorting circumstance here is that production from Fall 1917 through early 1919 was given over almost exclusively to the production of the 1917 US Army. That means that serial numbers one might interpolate to 1917/1918 need to be divided and pushed to the production runs both before and after that 16-month (+/-) interruption of normal commercial production.

Of course it is always possible with S&W that a gun with a lower serial number could have shipped quite a bit later than a gun numbered higher.

David, that is very true. I totally forgot about the government takeover during WWI. So that combined with S&W's typical practice of not shipping guns in any numerical order will definitely skew any attempt to nail down exact shipping dates.

We also know that the initial run was somewhere around 1044 guns, but I don't believe that I have ever seen over what time period that took place. There is also the balance of the first 3000 or about 2000 guns with the numbered stocks. Were they all built prior to the gun being cataloged in 1915 or did those additional 2000 guns ship out after 1915???

The machinist walkout in July of 1918 caused such turmoil that the goverment ordered a takeover of the plant around August 31, 1918 and assumed control on September 13, 1918. They didn't relinquish control until January 31, 1919. So we can assume that S&W was not making or shipping out any .22/32 HFT's during that 7 month period. The US declared war on April 2, 1917 so there probably was not much commercial production between April 1917 and July 1918 either so we lose another 16 months. So all in all, there were probably not many commercial shipments for almost 2 years.

There is also the unknown number of serial numbers that were used by other models in the .32 HE series like the .32 regulation police, the 1903 5th's and the .32 HE thirds.

JSR III said:

Froggie, I would have to politely disagree with you. I own 3 22/32 HFT's and the prices can go to the moon. A lot depends on how much the Seller thinks his gun is a "Bekeart" model. I have seen them go for over $1,300 with excellent condition and box.

A run of the mill "Bekeart" model will usually ask around $450 to $750. Real dogs are less and real gems are more. A "true Bekeart" (one of the first 292 shipped) will be right up there.

Click to expand...

James,

I don't think we are that far apart in our valuation... it seems that the OP is describing a "Real dog" and would thus expect to pay low ball price for it. $450 for a complete 75% gun seems about right, but when you have one or more missing parts and finish issues, that would take some serious value off IMHO. Of course when all is said and done, it comes down to how badly the buyer wants to buy it and how much the seller wants/needs/expects to get out of it. As described, I can't imagine going over $250 or so unless I knew I had the sight coming and had a good worn (but not worn out) set of grips. Then I would still just have a kinda neat shooter... a brown gun... but it would then be in line with its current value around here. JMHO, YMMV!

Regards,
Froggie

PS I would 1 like to get one like this if it could be had cheaply enough to use as a platform to custom build a target .32 Regulation Police, since DCW seems to be trying to get all of the originals for himself.

Charlies,
Last month I saw one with a higher serial number and with finish similar to what you describe sell for around $450 at a local gun auction house. It was complete and with good timing, lockup and etc. Had worn, Bekeart style, stocks. Would have bid on it myself but I was there for another early S&W. If you could negotiate $100 off of your find, you would be doing fine.
Incidentally, last fall at the same auction house there was later model 22-32 heavy duty with the Registered police style stocks, all in beautiful condition. It sold for over $1200!

John

Thanks for all the advice. I bought the 22/32 for 270. and ordered the rear sight blade from Jack First. The grips are worn but the revolver locks up tightly. One cylinder hole had a slight peen from dry firing which made inserting a round difficult but a few passes with a rat tail file fixed it.

Put a box 50 rounds through it yesterday and was able to figure out how to hold it without rear sight blade so I was soon busting clay pigeons sitting in the sand at 20 yards.

Again thanks for all the helpful advice....and a tip of my hat to the Jack First employee who was so patient as I described what I needed.
Charlie
Cool and foggy from the SW Orygun Coast

For what it's worth, #225135 shipped in September of 1915.

It was the standard configuration of the time, 6" barrel, extension grips with gold medallions etc.

I appreciate the information. I figured 1914 from the information I had gathered.
Regards Charlie

as an added piece of info, there is one for sale on one of the sites that is over $1,000 with about 3 hours to go. It is in nice shape but not perfect by any stretch. It is serialed in the 130,000's but did not ship to Bekeart. Has numberd stocks under 1000.

charlies said:

Thanks for all the advice. I bought the 22/32 for 270. and ordered the rear sight blade from Jack First. The grips are worn but the revolver locks up tightly. One cylinder hole had a slight peen from dry firing which made inserting a round difficult but a few passes with a rat tail file fixed it.

Put a box 50 rounds through it yesterday and was able to figure out how to hold it without rear sight blade so I was soon busting clay pigeons sitting in the sand at 20 yards.

Again thanks for all the helpful advice....and a tip of my hat to the Jack First employee who was so patient as I described what I needed.
Charlie
Cool and foggy from the SW Orygun Coast

Click to expand...

There you go!

If you got it for that money and were able to get the sight parts you needed quickly and reasonably, you are now into that gun right. If we do our homework and wait for the opportunities to come along, and are ready to recognize the good ones, we can do very well. Congratulations on a good find and buy!

Froggie

Received the rear sight blade from Jack First...it fits like a charm and is dead on while plinking clay pigeons sitting in the sand at 25 yards.
Charlie