Doing some inventory at our shop turned up this very interesting old S&W...

http://cockadoodledeals.com/sw001.jpg

http://cockadoodledeals.com/sw002.jpg

http://cockadoodledeals.com/sw003.jpg

http://cockadoodledeals.com/sw006.jpg

Obviously old (4-screw), .44 Spl, in need of some parts and TLC...but what is it?

Any help would be appreciated.

5 screw...I forgot the one forward of the trigger guard...

Thanks Bob!

We're trying to decide whether it's worth rehabilitating. Zero finish but actually no rust...

As was said, it's a 44 HE 2nd Model. The ejector knob and the "Made in USA" on the frame dates it to the 1930's. If I'm reading the serial # under the barrel correctly at 31,XXX, it's from the very early '30s and the B means it was originally a blue gun. Definitely worth getting back into shooting condition.

The correct thumblatch would look like this:

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I can't believe two things . One, that on that gun, in that condition,
the last two digits of the serial number would be hidden . And two,
that besides a small boat anchor, the gun has any other redeeming
features. For goodness sakes, its just a piece of junk.

Mike Priwer

The easiest thing to do is just list it on this forum, it's free to list. Then you won't even have to deal with it. It's not worth much but someone will buy it at the right price. Just list what's missing besides the obvious: thumblatch, hammer spring and stocks.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

First off: Wilmoe, welcome to the Forum.

Please don't be put off by some of the comments by some of our members. These folks are world class collectors and they buy their S&Ws in as mint as condition as they can find them.

Mike, Mike, Mike-tsk,tsk,tsk. While I realize that to you, that ole 2nd model is junk, but I remember the dark days when .44 Specials had been discontinued by the factory and any old .44 was to be tresured, especially by us that were on a beer budget.

As long as it ain't priced like a 99% 4th model target, that Smif can still be put back into service.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

that's just begging for a round-but conversion, a reblue and a pancake holster

I have to agree. That was a rather harsh welcome to a new member.

The gun may not have much collector value, but for the right price, someone that is not rolling in dead presidents may want to make a project out of it if for no other reason than as a learning experience.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Shouldn't you be taking pictures of your gold ingots (yes, I remember that gaudy picture)? What purpose does a comment like that serve? I'm sure the new member (and anyone else who reads your comment) is dying to become a S&WCA member. Elitism will be the death of S&W collecting. Mark my words.

Thanks for all the input on this.

Mike, I appreciate that you've been a member of this forum a whole lot longer than many and especially me. And that you're no doubt a serious collector. Nevertheless, not everyone who collects vintage guns wants or expects them to be simply part of collection to put on display.

I also play guitar and, to me, a mint 1954 Fender Stratocaster is the Holy Grail. But, as a player, I wouldn't have one because I wouldn't own a guitar I was afraid to play. For me it's the same with guns. My personal daily carry is a very well worn S&W Model 28 and it's condition is, to me, part of it's charm. From it's performance at the range I know it's reliable and I would never be afraid to use it if necessary.

One man's junk is another man's treasure and despite the condition of this old Smith I know that there are a lot of folks who would love to rehabilitate it (myself included, if I could afford it) and turn it into the classic, vintage shooter it so easily could be...

FWIW, with regards to the serial number; it seems to be the way of the web for serials to be be only partially shown and I doubt if the last two, obliterated, numbers would be of any use or significance to anyone other than us or it's future owner.

Wilmoe

No personal offense intended.

Anyone else

I'm just calling a spade a spade - in my view. I have lots of early
S&W's with less than 50% original finish - some with zero original
finish, as they are refinished.

And for what its worth, note the "Likes" on my post, and then show
me yours!

Regards, Mike

Yup, $80 OTD! There is probably a good reason this thing was hidden, like loosie-goosie!

D R

ill take it for $80.

Mike FWIW.....JSRIII & JEREMYWS1 have the same number of likes as you and Muley Gil has more.....shall we compare facebook friends also?

For the right price I think it would make an interesting winter project.

Mike,
It occurs to me that the "Likes" list only tells half the story. We get no insight into the numbers who click on the red triangle on the upper right.
Bob

My mamma probably told me the same thing yours did, If you can't say something nice, Don't say anything.

Good luck with your possible project, esp after assessing [a] the internals for absence/wear that may be commensurate with the exterior signs of a hard life and [b] whether it shoots decently. It is a gem in the rough, and both words deserve full weight.

If re-do is a go, we would love to see pictures of the "After" status, particularly if it shoots well.

Thanks to the OP for sharing the find here. Lots of relevant comments above, showing that this forum is a collector AND and a shooter venue.

Regards,

Dyson

Around here, at a gunshow, that "piece of junk" would probably have a price tag of $750. 44's of any kind seem rare as hen's teeth.

Wilmoe,
First, welcome aboard.

OK, I have to admit I'm caught. I clicked the "Like" button when I first read Mike's post because I laughed out loud about the serial number question.
I guess the boat anchor was a little harsh, but I still rate the ser num thing as Mike's funniest post to date.

In recent years, it seems like we've seen more and more "rehabilitation" of some pretty rough guns.
I always remember my early days in the game, and the guns I "shouldn't have bought."
I think encouraging a new guy to pursue a project like this is doing him a disservice.
Talk's cheap.
Vintage parts and skilled gunsmithing is not.
So, he can easily wind up with $700-800 in a good $300 gun.
Rather, let's give good advice tempered with logic versus over-enthusiasm spending OPM.
Let's tell them to wait on a better gun. Don't buy problems. Don't soak money, time, effort, and anxiety into a project you can never break even on. That alone could deprive us of future enthusiasts when they experience the trade value and very limited market base of a "project".

Don't get me wrong- it's a relatively free country, and it's your money. Do what you want with it.
Still, my advice will always be to put your money in the best original gun you can find at your budget level. It will always cash out faster to more people in the market base for closer to your investment.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

thanks to grumpy mike for reminding me why i dont post. there are a lot better ways of saying things then the one you used. look at things for what they can be not what they are. i thought i was back in grade school when kids would laugh at me for asking the teacher questions. funny no matter how old you get there are still mean kids.

Its like the line from the Riverboat Gambler song:

"You got to know when to hold 'em, and when to fold 'em."

On this thread, I'm folding 'em.

Mike Priwer

Well Wilmoe, there was certainly a lot of interest stirred up by your posting. I will add my comment to the general chaos and let you take it for what it is worth (probably about what you paid for it! ) I find that it is hard to find a good project S&W upon which one can build a good custom gun in a desirable caliber and configuration. If that revolver is priced very cheaply as appropriate to condition and is as solid as you imply, you could get it shooting for a very reasonable price (assuming you have access to a supply of vintage parts.) That, and a set of suitable grips could be an easily accomplished first step. A good sand blasting and matte blue would then make this a dandy carry gun in an undeniably authoritative caliber.

No one could ever accuse you of damaging a collectible, messing with history, etc, etc. If it were offered to me at anything like a cheap price, I would jump on it, but then again talk is cheap... if you are interested in selling it, drop me a PM with price and particulars.

Froggie

If I had this, I would try to locate parts for it and at least restore so it would be a shooter............not sure if I would have it refinished.......but I would not think it would cost more that a couple of hundred to make it presentable.

We haven't really made any decisions about the disposition of this old Smith but we certainly appreciate all the interest that's been shown in it. This piece of junk has certainly whetted a few appetites, judging by the number of PMs we've received...

Our purpose in joining and posting here was to glean the knowledge of those more familiar with what we might have. To maybe share something a little interesting and unusual with those who appreciate the marque. We weren't really looking for a valuation or a buyer.

It wasn't "hidden." It was just sitting in a drawer of guns needing parts/repair that no one had bothered with in quite some time.

Reading through this thread takes me back to a time I stumbled across an 'old' Colt DA .41 LC, prewar I'd have guessed. No grips broken hammer spring & IIRC the cylinder wouldn't stay latched. Dirty but not rusty been in a tool box drawer for who know how long. My friend was in his 80's & mention bring it back from Japan after WW2. To me it was an old junk gun, I couldn't even tell you what it was other the Colt DA .41 Colt Long. IF, I had offered $25 for it, he would probably have given it to me. Oh well, we live and we learn! ;-)

D R

Very good thread! Obviously, there are a lot of different viewpoints, expressed frankly and honestly. One thing this Forum has taught me is not to be too thin-skinned.

Most people don't mean anything insulting or personal, so I don't take it that way. If I did, I would have left this Forum long ago.

Anyways, about the gun:
I sure would be interested in buying, but at a "parts gun" price, of course. I will not bother to PM 'cause it sounds like your PM box already overfloweth.

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You're shy a few manners.

Retired LTC USAR said "If I had this, I would try to locate parts for it and at least restore so it would be a shooter..." I thinks that's the best advice I've heard yet. I'm sure a few of our members have the parts you need amongst their odds and ends. They could probably even recommend a good gunsmith in your area to give it a once-over before firing it.

Me, I wouldn't worry about refinishing it, it has too much character as-is.

And of course, welcome to the Forum!

Todd

ps your responses are well spoken!

I can't believe two things . One, that on that gun, in that condition,
the last two digits of the serial number would be hidden . And two,
that besides a small boat anchor, the gun has any other redeeming
features. For goodness sakes, its just a piece of junk.

Mark me down as finding no humor in the classless statement.

Kinda feels like highschool again, watching the different class of people group together at the lunch table and pick on the less fortunate. I would like to have any .44 caliber revolver by the way.

To me the old 2nd Model HE is an inspiring invitation for a "project".

I would get it going well mechanically, tidy up a few things, m-a-y-b-e make it into a Round Butt, make some plain, polite, all business Circasian Walnut stocks for it, like the 1917 Stocks were, and leave it's "finish" just as it is.

I like it! If I ran across it and the price was reasonable, I'd buy it in a Heartbeat to make it my own, and put some time and imagination into it.

As others have said - there ARE many ways to 'see' an item/object/artefact even in seeing it 'as it is'...and, with this one, what I see, is it's potential, in the right hands, to be massaged into something very fun, practical and respectable for carry and for recreation.

The way so many people ride S&W for locks and MIM parts, I figured every post here would be positive. I've seen a lot of those Brazilian 1917's having mismatched serial numbers and no finish with price much higher than that on gunbroker.

Wilmoe, welcome to the Forum and please stay around, it's a great place to learn a lot about S&W and other firearms (and related firearms minutae) for that matter.

I think that .44 would make a rather classy small boat anchor.

It might even work as one of them things mountain climbers throw into the rocks with a rope tied on it to climb higher.

I agree with the collectors who posted here. If you are looking to make some money it probably would not do to re-finish/restore it.

But when I saw it I thought; "Put all the parts needed back into it, leave it unfinished, then look for a pair of grips that have the same panache."

It might be somehwat expensive but it would be a pretty nifty carry and conversation gun.

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Have guns...will shoot'em.

I could see this as a "learning project". Learning to disassemble clean, lube, and re-assemble. Determining what parts are needed, then chasing down all those needed parts. Going to gun shows and searching through parts boxes. Getting books and reading up the specific model and calling the parts by the correct nomenclature. You would have to set dollar limits on what you spend for parts, but most parts dealers are anxious to get rid of those well worn but still serviceable parts. They don't need to be pristine.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Questions of condition, salvability, and value aside; there are a couple of things here that mystify me. I don't have a gun of that age and there are some things that don't look right.

Is that a standard pattern ejector rod head of the period?

Are the sideplate screws on those guns as small as these look?

Hi Jim,
Yes, anytime after c.1929-30. See post #4.
Yes, they appear dwarfed slightly on N frames. I think especially so on a gun in the white which can tend to make the gun appear larger.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Wow, I have to say that I'm really touched by all the positive thoughts, words and encouragement. Not to mention all the interest being shown by those who see it's potential as, at the very least, a fun project.

Our inclination, at this stage, is to follow the suggestion of replacing the missing parts and slap an appropriate pair of grips onto it. The question, then, is are N-frame parts interchangeable? We're not looking to get period correct parts; just those that will fit and work... We usually buy from Numrich or Midway. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

Wilmoe,

I'm not a gunsmith and don't even play one on TV, but I can tell you that using just any vintage N-frame parts will not always work. Fortunately the bulk of the parts from WW I service type N-frames (which are not too expensive) will probably work for most of what you seem to need. By and large you should be able to use almost any pre-WW II parts in this revolver with little or no fitting or alteration.

"Grips is grips" on the N-frames (at least as much so as any other frame size in the S&W line.) For instance, I have swapped a pair of custom grips (complete wrap-around) back and forth between a Model 1917 and a Model 29-2 with no problems.

Then again, it will probably be entirely too much trouble, so maybe you ought to just send the whole sorry lot to me for proper disposition.

Froggie

I agree, it was a cynical remark and one I don't believe was truly meant to insult the OP but more to bring the reality of the gun to light. But in all honesty, I did get quite a laugh and I bet most of you guys got a bit of a laugh as well. Sometimes it pays not to get too serious over some off the cuff remarks but appreciate any humor that comes our way.

Wilmoe, I'd be keeping the gun handy with the idea of returning it to a shooter when parts come available from gunshows or acquaintances or guys around here. Good luck with it and welcome to the forum. .

I think everyone on here can agree two things.
Mike knows an S&W, and that we each have our own tastes.
This gun isn't the mint condition caddy sitting in grampa's garage, but with some elbow grease and a little hard work it could certainly be a pocket cannon with a little class to boot.

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27-2, 66-1, 640 Pro, 10-5

I have read with interest all of the comments on this old Smith 44. These old shooters have made history in a way no NIB gun made in 1915 will ever be able to do. I see these "project" guns as a piece of canvas that begs to have an artwork painted on it. True, you will not recapture the money spent on it. But life is not all about money or value, it is mostly about the adventure of doing something that generates the creative spirit. The search for the alusive part, the right grips, that personal touch that says this is my custom gun! I have done at least a dozen of what I call "graveyard" projects that were resurrections of dead, abused, hopeless cases. They are my beauties and I value them more than the ones in my safe that are safe"queens". I currently have 3 in the Que as "project" status, A Winchester 1894 and 2 S&W 44s. Call me crazy but I have developed a network of friends that have helped with my projects and theirs. Good luck with whatever you decide as to the fate of that old shooter. ENJOY!

I too enjoy working on guns like that as long as the purchase price is right. Something about putting it back in service that calls to me. I can't help myself just part of my nature I guess.

Very few people who restore cars sell them at a profit. For them, it's a labor of love. I've restored a couple of guns over the years and ended up falling in love with them. They have a character that a new or nearly new gun lacks. I love a challenge. Having said that, I DO love my pristine collectables also.

We're talking two different catagories. You'll never turn this sow's ear into a silk purse, but you can turn it into a neat piece of history. Whenever you handle it, you can remember that you rescued this bad boy from a fate worse than death, er the scrap heap.

Starting back in the '70s, I started collecting S&W parts, including several .45 ACP cylinders and yokes. While I was overseas and ebay was still selling gun parts, I picked up a fair number of parts also.

Finally, I found a couple of stripped, barreled frames.

Here is one of them, a 1917 that I saved.





I have had a couple of other big bore revolvers, including a 2nd model .44, that had been chooped. They all had their worth.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Other parts sources are:
Jack First, Inc.
Popperts Gun Parts.

Both have websites. You can Google them. I would also try the WTB section of this board.

Several years ago I wrote a submission on "generationally" interchangeable parts. It is unfortunately no longer on the board. To give you the short version:

Triggers up until the MIM ones will work.
Hammers up until the short action (Model 1950s) came in, including the transition guns.
Modern hands will work.
Cylinder stops until end of WWII will work.
Modern mainsprings will work.

The downside is the ejector rod for this vintage is the rarest.

Good luck on the project.

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S&WCA 1729

It seems to me that Tennexplorer's submission on 'generationally' interchangeable parts, would be a candidate for the 'notable thread' listing, if it can be recovered.

Yes, I would love to see the full version of the "Interchangable Parts" post.

Tennexplorer, did you by chance save a copy you could post now?

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You're shy a few manners.

I'm creeping out of my self-imposed time out to offer an opinion on the gun and and opinion on the opinions.

The gun... did I read the price was $80? I'd be on that like white on rice... like ugly on Rosie O'Donnell... like ethics charges on a member of the Obama Administration. I would polish it myself and cold blue it and find the missing parts and shoot the Hell out of it.

The opinions... well, Mike is never shy about expressing his feelings. Yes, the gun is a beater. Yes, it's NOT something that would interest a collector of his stature (or any other "collector" for that matter). Yes, Mike can be a bit brusque at times with his evaluations. But I still respect his knowledge and experience and his comments should not be taken personally. He only speaks of the guns, not the owners. He has helped far more people than he has offended so as far as I am concerned he is still in positive territory.

I know that many folks think I am also too critical and undiplomatic at times but that's the way it was in my family and I was raised to be direct and honest. We didn't sugarcoat things around my house when I was growing up. We didn't call a spade a spade, it was bleeping shovel. (Oh man, I hope that doesn't get me in trouble, again.)

Finally, my thoughts on hiding serial numbers are well known. If someone can provide evidence of even one instance where mischief was successfully perpetrated by someone gleaning a posted serial then I will apologize to everyone I have accused of being paranoid. (I still recall the new guy who posted his serial as N6xxxxx. I mean, really, how paranoid can we get? Wouldn't one x be enough?)

Crawling back into my corner now.

I'm too new, around here, to be at all familiar with Mike or any past brusqueness that he may be guilty of. Suffice it to say that I considered his comments to be his honest opinion of the gun, not me, and that we all know about opinions; like the other thing...everybody has one.

In any case, I'm currently wrangling with my boss over acquiring this old Smith for myself. I've decided to make it mine because I'm someone whose heart goes out to any gun that has been used and abused but has the potential to be brought back to some semblance of usability.

In any case, I very much appreciate the info and suggestions of tennexplorer. As mentioned, and as far as I can tell without removing the side plate, the only parts I'll be needing are the mainspring, thumb latch, cylinder stop and grips. Trigger, hammer, ejector and cylinder all seem to be in good shape. Some 0000 steel wool, a bit of elbow grease and some cold blue and this one just might surpass my Model 28 as the star of my modest personal collection of classic shooters (alongside an early post-war Walther P-38 and late 60's ex-Hamburg police .32 Walther PP).

Just two thoughts; use 0000 brass wool, it's less harsh and forego the cold blue. The look of Muleygil's 1917 has a lot of panache. Just MHO to consider or disregard. Glad you decided to give it a go!

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Jim
S&WCA #819