Picked up this Pre-Victory 6" .38 S&W the other day. It is sn# 708674, with all numbers matching. I'm pretty sure it is going to be one of the South African contract guns. I am always surprised when I pick up a K with a light 6" barrel. They have always looked to me like they would be off balanced, but once in the hand they feel like home! Feel free to add it to the data base.

Anyway, here she be.....





























grips are numbered to the gun...

Congratulations on a fine gun. I agree that the six inch barrel handles really well. My Model 10 in that length is becoming one of my favorite guns.

LOBO, great looking gun. I like the 6" guns and agree with you that they are very well balanced. I have a 6" 38 SW that shipped to the Canadian military and it has a fair amount of wear so I greatly enjoy shooting it. Did you find any military markings on your gun?

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John. SWCA #1586

How did you determine it was a South African contract? I have a six inch just like it that is a little over 2,000 serial number higher. Nice pistol!

The British proof marks, and the guns serial number falls into a specific range.

LOBO, are there any markings on the backstrap? Your gun sounds like it may be one of the South African contract guns that was diverted to England for the war effort.

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John. SWCA #1586

NO 6" S&W were purchased by South Africa. The diverted guns were all 4". Given the post 1955 British commercial proofs amd early serial number, this revolver is almost certainly one of the first S&W purchased by Britain before a manufacturing contract was placed for 5" guns.

Peter

No sir, no marks.


Peter, thank you very much for setting me straight I have one of the 4" South African Contract guns that were diverted back to England, but I didn't recall that they were all 4" guns. I was going by this guns serial number as it falls in line with the South African Contract guns' serial number range listed in Pates book. I'm actually pleasantly surprised as this gives me a variation that I didn't have

Peter,

Do you know when and how many of these 6" guns were purchased by Britain before the contract for the 5" guns was placed?


Do you know what any of these marks stand for?

LOBO,
Great pre-victory! The six inchers, made standard for only about six months before going to 5" models as standard, are tough to find in that condition. That one is a true survivor. Thanks for sharing.
Larry

Most references say that 4,5, and 6 inch barrels were all made until April, 1942, when Britain standardized on five-inch barrels only and the dull finish and smooth grips. (The guns were first bought from about April, 1940. Possibly May; I don't have time to check the books now.)

A brother once owned a gun like Lobo's, and it had only UK proof and sale marks. However, I think I've seen photos of six-inch examples in Aussie hands, and certainly Canada had some.

If South Africa had only four-inch barrels, they must be the exception. I'm pretty sure that Peter knows, but is that what he said, or was he referring only to one batch of guns diverted in 1940 to Britain? And saying that they took no six-inch barrels at all? Were there five-inch SA guns?

And, if not, why not, as only five-inch barrels were being furnished as .38-200's after early 1942?

Thanks Larry!!

TS,
Peters post is #7 on page one.

Yes, I read it. But he was referring to British guns, not to those definitely sent to what was then the Union of South Africa. He left open the question of SA five-inchers.

I vaguely recall us posting about this before, here or on Gunboards. If so, I've forgotten what he said.

Maybe he'll see this and clarify. I just don't see how they got around accepting five-inchers after April, 1942. Seems unlikely that they'd already have as many .38's as they'd need for the rest of the war. I think their troops fought in Italy as well as in North Africa and against the Italians in NE Africa. There was also a separate SAAF, independent of the RAF. (The famous fighter pilot "Sailor" Malan was South African, but served in the RAF. The top Allied pilot other than Soviet was Marmaduke St.John Pattle, if I have his last name right. He was South African, and had about 50 kills when he was fatally shot down while covering the British withdrawal from Greece. He flew a Hurricane at the time. Thought that might be of interest. No idea if he carried a S&W. Malan owned a Webley WG, but it was a family heirloom and may well not have been his service revolver. I hope this isn't too far off topic. Thought some might care.)

South African Air Force pilots also supported us in Korea. They flew F-51's and F-86's. But I don't think they sent ground troops.

Gotcha! I thought you may have just overlooked it.

The way I understood it, the South African Contract diverted guns were in 4" only. These are the guns that were shipped from S&W to Capetown, but didn't arrive since they were diverted back to England. These guns don't have the arrow & U mark on the hump of the backstrap.

Here is one that I have along with its factory letter,



The gun...

Several answers required here! In mid 1941 SA ordered 7500 more 4" S&W. The factory's response was to offer only 5", but to assure that any spare 4" barrels would fit. These guns were supplied.

Yes, SA played a major role in defeating the Italians in East Africa, and then fought in the Western Desert. When Tobruk fell in June 1942 10722 SA troops were captured along with many British and Commonwealth troops. This may be responsible for what I see as the relative scarcity of the earlier 4" guns. Then the SA 6th Armoured Division fought in Italy from April 1944 to May 1945.

The SAAF fought in Korea, but no ground troops. The future head of the SAAF, General Dennis Earp, was shot down whilst flying a Mustang. I recently asked Dennis if he was carrying a S&W at the time. He said yes, but that it was now in the hands of the PRC Army!

[QUOTE=LOBO;136166220]The way I understood it, the South African Contract diverted guns were in 4" only. These are the guns that were shipped from S&W to Capetown, but didn't arrive since they were diverted back to England. These guns don't have the arrow & U mark on the hump of the backstrap.

Here is one that I have along with its factory letter,
QUOTE]

The diverted guns were indeed 4" ones Lobo. However, they were NOT sent to Cape Town; the factory letter is incorrect. The diversion was between the Britsh and SA in the US. Shipping was not organised by S&W and so I can only assume that their records were never amended from the original order. No S&W revolvers arrived in SA until August 1940.

Peter

Its interesting that 708674 does not bear any British ordnance inspection stamp, which I would expect to see. The commercial proof marks show only that it has been in the United Kingdom at some point.

Regards

AlanDavid
Sydney

I agree. There's something about the balance of a 6" standard-barrel K-frame that just can't be beat.

That's a beautiful revolver you have. Congratulations on a great find!

Lobo, I envy you your .38 with a six-inch barrel. I have an ex-British Army Victory Model with a five-inch barrel. My revolver and I - both of us seventy years old - recently took first place in a shooting competition. Not the world's most powerful handgun, but a beautiful experience to shoot. And anyway, I should hate to be the one looking down the barrel from the naughty end if the person holding it had reason to be upset with me.

Congratulations on your gun and your win!!

Kind words, Lobo, thanks. And if ever you should decide that you have had quite enough of your revolver's companionship, kindly let me know: I should absolutely love to relieve you of it. Since you suspect she was a South African contract weapon, and since I am a South African lover of S&W, your gun would team up nicely with myself and my Victory.

Hope the attachment takes. My 4" .38 S&W lettered as U. of S.A. It is a 685XXX that was shipped May 1940 to Capetown per the letter. It has no post factory markings of any type. So, the letter is incorrect?

Waidmann

Attached Images

pix302457822.jpg (20.9 KB, 58 views)

Waidmann, I believe you have one of the "diverted" South Africa Victory models. I also believe the letter is partially correct... the Victory was ordered by South Africa, it just never got there.

I have s/n 686,338 that has Brit proof marks and NO Union of South Africa markings. The factory letter says it was shipped May 3, 1940 and "delivered" to the Union of South Africa. Further research shows it was part of a shipment by S&W to a freight forwarder John Block & Co., Inc. located at Pier 14 North River, NY, NY.

I know of two separate shipments intended for South Africa, one on May 3, 1940 and the other on May 22, 1940... guns observed in both of these shipments show NO Union of South Africa markings but do show British Proof Marks. Noted barrel lengths are 4".

Our forum friend, Peter, has stated previously that Union of South Africa guns were diverted to the UK on May 31, 1940
(1 to 3 weeks after the guns were shipped).

It is very possible that these two S&W shipments were sent via New York to the freight fowarder where they were to be reloaded onto an ocean going vessel. Rather than being shipped south, they were diverted, went north and sailed with one of the North Atlantic convoys to England.

Actual "Union of South Africa" Victory models should have a "U" stamping on the backstrap of the gun. These models have been observed in the 5" barrel length.

An easy way to "spot" these diverted guns (although not 100% accurate!) is a blued, 4" Victory with British Proof marks in the 68x,xxx range.

Hope this helps!

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Linda, thanks for your input. The shipping date was given as May 1940. This not the first or last British Service Model variant I have seen sans non-factory marks. No military or commercial proofs, acceptance, inspection; nada. I am familiar with the arrow/U as well. All this child collected was scratches.

Bill

This is one of the Union of South Africa pre-Victory models that was diverted back to the U.K.,













This is one of the Union of South Africa pre-Victory models that made it to South Africa evidenced by the marking on the top of the backstrap,

Lobo,

Great examples of South Africa pre-Victory's!

What's the barrel length of the "U" stamped one...? It looks like 4".

The only ones I have are these two... both a little bit worn. Both of them have post war Brit stampings.

Pre-Victory 686338, shipped 5-3-40:



Pre-Victory 707445, shipped 9-1940:

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Then there is the one that some hung-over armourer stamped with its UDF number too far up the backstrap, leaving no room for the arrow in U!

Peter

Attached Images

No U S&W 38.jpg (106.1 KB, 33 views)

Peter, that's the highest number I've seen!

Can you share any other details on the gun... serial number, shipping date, etc?

I'm guessing it was from the 3rd order placed (6-7-41) ??

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Linda,

thank you for sharing your guns! I always enjoy your wonderful pictures.

the U stamped one is indeed a 4" barrel (w/ matching serial number). I could have sworn that I had a factory letter on it, but after a good bit of searching I have come up empty handed. I'm going to put in a request for one shortly.

Lobo,

I never got around to getting the "U" stamped model lettered either. I think I did ask Roy about a shipping date and was told it was September of 1940. I guess I should get it lettered just to have it.

Thanks for your posts!

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Sorry to have been so slow in responding Linda. The gun is UDF 21506 and S/N 957172, marked "United States Property". The third order (for 7500) direct on S&W took the UDF numbers to 21347 (the 47 were a production over-run that S&W offered to South Africa. By the time a further order for 3000 was attempted (April 1942) Lend Lease was in place and all orders for any stores from the US were controlled by the London Munitions Assignment Board (LMAB). Stores, including the S&Ws, were released by the LMAB to the UK or British Dominion which made the best case regarding urgency.

South Africa finally received a total of around 27000 S&Ws. The highest UDF number I have recorded is 263403, but this was another drunken armourer! The highest correct number is 26565, which also has the highest S/N V311078. This is the only UDF gun I have seen marked "US Property GHD".

Peter

Peter, thanks for the follow-up! You've been so helpful on the history and background of these UDF Victory models.

I did a double take when I read UDF # 263403... mabe the armourer had too much Amarula!

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Don't know about Amarula, but they make good brandy there, and some "sherry", as well as fine wines. (Since 1655.) I'll look up Amarula. Is it made from that fruit that gets elephants drunk?

I think that higher numbered gun of Peter's is a Midnight Black finish with five-inch bbl.?

[QUOTE=Texas Star;136760605] I'll look up Amarula. Is it made from that fruit that gets elephants drunk?

Yep, that's the stuff! I've seen photos of elephants "passed out" under the fruit tree. You can buy Amarula at local liquor/ABC/package stores.... it's very tasty! It reminds me a little of a fruit flavored Kahula & cream.

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

UPDATE

Today I saw a later gun with UDF number 26615, serial number V320324 and also marked "US Property GHD". Very unfortunately it had been (crudely) de-activated!@#$%^

Peter

Hello Peter:

Are both V311078 (your post #32 above) and V320324 (your post #36 above) 5 inch barreled guns in .38 S&W (.38-200)?

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Yes Charlie. As were all of the South African Union Defence Force S&Ws after the first 13847 4" ones.

Peter