Help with old Yellow Grips Please

OK, I can't find the old threads about these.
I seem to remember Texas.
I think I remember a doctor made them as a hobby or sideline.......
What's the story, fellas?
These are K frame, but I've seen N frame, Colt N.S and S.A. examples.

here you go

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/176612-my-gunshow-finds-2-6-11-a.html

Mine has the same finger grooves on the left side.


Charlie

Lee,

I have seen pairs of these before but I have no idea of their origin. They very well may have come from Texas, however, your statement that they may have been made by a doctor got me to thinking in detail.

Some have said that they think the grips are of Bakelite or Catalin. If my memory serves me correctly, Bakelite is a much more brittle substance and it has been around since the early part of the 20th Century. A similar material called Vulcanite (aka Hard Rubber) was used during that time for the construction of full dentures. The material of the grips seems to be much more dense to me than the Vulcanite.

In the decade preceding WWII, a new product called Vinylite was produced and used in dentures. This was followed by the methyl-methacrylates, some of first polymers that we now call "plastics".

Since the grips are of the Magna style, I am of the opinion that they are of one of those 1930 era resins.

I believe that any one of thousands of dentists or dental laboratories who made dentures then could have produced those grips because the material and the finish on the grips is what one could have expected with a good set of pre-war dentures. It would have been a simple task for a dentist who was familiar with the processing of acrylics to have made a mold for the grips if he was so inclined. So, unless we ever turn up a set with a direct link to someone, the innovative maker will probably remain unknown.

The workmanship on both grips is excellent. I suspect that they were both made by the same operator. The subtle variations in shape of the finger grooves on your set and Charlie's tell me that each set was individually finished. Although the number "7" is crudely scratched and the semicircle is badly fitted, that only indicates that an existing metal circle was cut in half and the number was quickly scribed to keep the two halves together.

As an aside, when I first started practice I made a set of acrylic target grips for a revolver fitted to my hand. I made it from a self curing polymer rather than the more dense ones that are cured under high pressure and heat so mine wasn't as pretty but it fit me nicely...(wonder what ever happened to that one?)

Bob

There was an article in the American Rifleman within the last couple of years about John Wayne's guns, specifically the SAA with the yellow grips he carried in his later movies.. I recall the left side grip on his gun also had the finger grooves, and yours look an awful lot like the grips on Wayne's gun. I don't recall exactly when the article was published but I do recall it discussed the grips. Might be if you can find it you can learn something more there.

Wyo: You are correct on the John Wayne grips. I have had several pairs that came on Pre-War Colt Single Actions. We always called them at them Bakelite at that time. The ones I had were all marked inside with Roman numerals - I,II,III etc. Leads me to think there might have been several assembly workers involved or more than one machine.

IIRC the John Wayne grips were made of the catalin material, mentioned earlier. Seem to recall that from the article about his guns.
And those k grips look very much like the catalin.

I remember seeing these same Stocks ( Ginger indents, same color ) on a pre-War Colt 'Official Police' Revolver and I really lked them...I almost bought the Gun for that reason, but Seller ( Gunbroker ) would not reply to questions about Bore, Timing and Lock up, and, his price was high, so...I passed.

I like how they are not 'hollow' as the Franzite examples are.

In regard to Leo's comment above, the Roman numerals are usually associated with grips made by Wolf & Klar. In those cases, close examination will reveal that the individual marks of the numerals are made with a circular grinding implement. (i.e. they are deepest in the middle and shallow on the ends.)

The only pair of "polymer" grips that I have seen the insides of are those of Lee's at the start of this post. It is obvious that the Arabic numerals are hand scribed so I doubt that those are from W&K.

If my theories previously posted are right, each of these "polymer" grips are individually made and hand finished. No mass production here.

Bob

I agree with bettis, they don't seem to be made of catalin. I looked at the pairs of catalin grips I have and they seem to be more translucent. They may be of a bakelike or vynil material. I had a pair similar to what you have that I bought at an estate sale long ago and they weren't catalin, which I thought they were, so I sold them, wish I hadn't done that. Very nice grips though.

pics of inside of my grips.




below is the Wiki info on Catalin.

Catalin is a brand name for a thermosetting polymer popular in the 1930s. Developed when the American Catalin Corporation took over the patents for Bakelite in 1927, Catalin is a cast phenolic which can be worked with files, grinders and cutters and polishes to a fine sheen. Chemically, it is a phenol formaldehyde resin. Catalin has a different manufacturing process (two-stage process) than other types of Bakelite resins (without using fillers such as sawdust or carbon black). Catalin is transparent, near colorless, rather than opaque, brown, so unlike other bakelite phenolics it can be dyed bright colors or even marbled. This has made Catalin more popular than other types of Bakelite. In the 1930s-1950s it quickly replaced most plastic consumer goods.

Catalin is heavy, quite greasy in feel and as hard as brass. It is heat resistant and does not soften under boiling water. Like Bakelite it gives off a distinctive phenolic odour when heated, and can be tested using Simichrome - which turns from pink to yellow. Due to oxidation, older Catalin items darken in color with white fading to yellow. This caused some very interesting effects when radio cabinets were made from Catalin. [1] Catalin radios were often made in stylish Art Deco designs and are highly sought after by collectors.

Catalin is a trademark of the Catalin Corporation of America.
[edit] Uses

Catalin bakelite is perhaps the most worldwide recognized plastic and was used in the 1930s to 50s for many household objects, jewelry, small boxes, lamps, cutlery handles and desk sets. Catalin jewelry, more commonly referred to now as Bakelite jewelry was made from the 1930s until the end of World War II when it became too expensive as every piece had to be individually cast and polished. The Catalin Corporation introduced 15 new colours in 1927 and developed techniques to create marbling. The colours included yellow, orange, red, greens, blue and purple, with clear, opaque and marbled versions. In the 1930s jewelry made from these colours were very popular with sets of beads, bangles, earrings and rings being worn together. Even though the jewelry made out of this material is referred to as bakelite in the antique trade, the household items, radios, cutlery ,etc is accurately referred to as Catalin.

Hard to see all the detail, but there is a number 1 scratched on the top inside of each grip, where Lee's has a 7. There is also a "pie" looking mark or could be J I on the right grip, on the left is N , then 44 S&W, then initials HEC.


Charlie

I believe they are Catalin. In hand, the material looks exactly like the old "bakelite" jewelry which is actually Catalin.
Mine do make simichrome turn yellow, but the grips are yellow......

I have a similar set of grips except they appear to be darker more of a butterscotch color. And there is no number on the inside. And they are on my Model 10 from 1969.

a chip has broken off. how can I glue it back on?
thanks

Superglue.

My guess is these were "fake" ivory and started out a white/ivory color. This material darkens with age and oxidation, yours just darken more than the others. Obviously, the same stuff.


Charlie

I agree with Charlie; I'd try superglue...but VERY cautiously! I also agree that the originator was seeking something akin to ivory color.

I continue to believe that all of these grips are from the same maker since they all show the same finish and workmanship. This last pair shows even a slightly different finger groove pattern that confirms the hand finishing.

We have seen several different names here (Bakelite, Catalin, Franzite, Vulcanite, Vinylite, Ivorine,etc.-all were Trademarks) so what we need to remember is that during this time, probably the 1930's-1940's, there were many types of polymers developed.

We need to remember that even Smith and Wesson and Colt had their own synthetic products (Tuscoid and Coltene). In a recent SWCA Journal where his dream pistol is discussed, Doug Wesson is quoted as saying: "I am inclined to further investigate such materials as Plastics", so the search was developing on many fronts.

Each of these products had slightly different characteristics, (color, density, hardness, flexibility, workability, etc.) as their developers were trying to achieve a material directed to a specific or a general purpose. But in general, most had some characteristics in common; they involved the joining of a monomer and a polymer in a chemical polymerization process involving heat and pressure.

Bob

I think our best clue to the maker may be the "HEC" in Charlie's grip. Note that the first stroke of the "H" is done with the same hand as the "7" in Lee's grip. Note, too, that there are also similar pen or pencil marks (on the horn of Charlie's and around the metal circle of Lee's). I also believe that Lee's grips may be one of the earliest from this maker because of the added metal circle as he experimented with one of the most difficult parts of the grip to fit to a gun. He put the grip,without the circle on the gun, marked the position of the semicircle with his pen and then added the metal half circle.

Bob

Nothing substantial to add except what seems to be the same without the finger grooves.I always assumed them to be Catalin.

I'll toss in my vote for catalin, as well. Back in the 1950s/60s Wilkinson Sword ordered a batch of catalin grip scales for USMC officer's swords and British/Commonwealth forces general officer's swords. The started out a lovely Ivory white, but with the passage of time turned an amber/orange colour.

I also seem to recall catalin grips being commercially available in the 50s and 60s; someone with a bunch of old gun magazines may want to check out the small ads in the back...

Update

Thought I'd update this thread for future reference.

Recently bought this old 1930 HD from Lee (it's a reblue and I knew it and don't care).


Lee said it was a Texas gun, which adds credence to the stocks being made in Texas.

The backs are "oily feeling" which says they're probably that Catalin stuff. No markings on the back side except an "X".

The use of scratched in Roman Numerals was traditional in many categories of Artisan endevors for hundreds of years, whenever needing to identify parts which would be on-the-Bench more or less at the same time or in close succession, for multiple same-kind assemblies or sets of something.

One sees this in all sorts of applications, old Clocks, Watches, insides of Guns' Mechanisms and their internal Parts, Old Shotguns similarly with the Barrels so marked also...Cabinetmaking, on and on.