My friend stopped by today with an old S&W revolver that I'm having trouble IDing.

It's exactly the same frame size as my 1905 M&P's, but this is in .38 S&W caliber. It has a grooved trigger and is marked "Made in U.S.A." on the right side of the frame, just like the 4th Change. The SN is marked on the underside of the barrel, back of the cylinder, on the bottom of the grip and inside the frame by the yoke.

the barrel length is around 2", but I think it's been cut down. There are no markings on either side of the barrel and the front sight may have been silver soldered in place before a re-nickel job.

The serial number is 5258xx, which would fall in the 1905 M&P 4th Change, but the caliber is .38 S&W and not .38 Special.

Any help would be appreciated.

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Will work for ammo.

Hawgleg44, the barrel has indeed been cut down as indicated by the lack of a locking lug and has also been refinished. Is there a V preceding the serial number on the butt? Is the gun still in 38 SW or has it been converted to 38 SPL? If it does not have a V it was probably shipped to Britain or Canada etc. and returned to the U.S. post-war. If it has a V it is a Victory Model shipped to the Allies and returned after the war.

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John. SWCA #1586

It's a wartime lend/lease gun manufactured for Commonwealth service. After the war its barrel was cut and the gun was refinished. Thousands of guns modified like this one were reimported into the United States in the 1950s and 1960s. One of the disadvantages of these guns is that the ggressively shortened barrel resulted in the loss of the front locking lug, so in closed position the cylinder is supported only at the rear. On a gun by gun basis, this might be a problem. Depends on how loose it is.

That's actually a Victory model. There should be a V prefix in front of that serial number. It would have been manufactured with a five inch barrel and black phosphate ("parkerized") finish. You may still be able to see the complete serial number on the rear face of the cylinder and on the flat underside off the barrel.

Collector value is nil, but if the gun's action is tight enough and the yoke doesn't displace to the left when fired, these can be entertaining shooters.

Some cut-down commonwealth guns were bored out to take .38 Special rounds, which is problematic because the .38 Special case is of smaller diameter than the .38 S&W case. That means the Special case is only partially supported along its length, and that leads to swollen or even split cases on occasion.

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David Wilson

Thanks for the replies.

I checked the SN's on the underside of the barrel, inside the frame, back of the cylinder and bottom of the grip. None of them have a "V".

I said the same thing about the locking lug on the bottom of the barrel when I told him I thought it was cut down.

It is still chambered for the .38 S&W and nobody has bored the chambers out. He was recently given the revolver and knew nothing about it. Mechanically it is very tight, but as you can see in the pics, it's been refinished and far from new condition.

So, with the lack of the "V" anywhere, it's probably an export model that was reimported?

Thanks again for the info so far.

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Will work for ammo.

If it has a high 6-digit SN, it was a British contract gun shipped before 1942 and the start of the V prefix. The finish on these ranged from bright to matte blue, with the last ones having a Parkerized-like finish.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Look again for a V or traces of a V.
That number in the 525XXX range would be an early 20's gun that still had the mushroom ejector knob.

I see a grooved trigger.
I bet it has a SQUARE notch rear sight?
I bet the hammer and trigger say "Reg US Pat Off" on the back edges?
None of that fits an early 20's gun (except maybe the square notch).....

I think the V's got polished off.
I believe I still see part of the "P" on left top rear corner???

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Thes are pics of one I rebuilt back as close to orig as I could get it. It was a Victory that came back into the US and suffered the same fate as yours, maybe even by the same company. The first pic is after I disassembled it and removed the nickel. The second pic is after a new cyl, barrel, park job and grips. By doing everything myself I don't have much money (about $240) in it and I think it is in good enough condition to proudly display.
Larry

Attached Images

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	PIC_0220.jpg (67.7 KB, 70 views)

The number is what seems to be out of whack. 500K supposedly shipped in 1927. My lettered South African, 685XXX shipped May 3, 1940. I am not aware of any .38 S&W chamberings in 1905's prior to the WWII era or that era begining at such a low number. But it is what it is. A pre-V that went to England should bear proofs. Other Commonwealth countries likely not.

There were U.S. agencies that used the Regulation Police and Colts in .38 S&W. There are more questions than answers.

In the final analysis it is the equivalent of a butchered Victory. An ill advised modification with very nominal value and a potential hazard. They started locking the ejector rod early, with good reason.

Absolutely no traces of a "V" on any of the 4 matching serial numbers present on the revolver.

Yes, square notch rear sight.

I don't have the revolver here, so I'd have to check. I didn't notice it, but it might say that.

Yes, there is a "P" there.

That looks great. I was considering refurbing this one if I end up buying it from my friend. One of my other friends is a gunsmith and will park it for me, so I'll be all set there.

Did you keep yours .38 S&W or did you convert it to .38 Special?

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Will work for ammo.

Hawgleg44,
Put it back to 38 S&W. I have a US victory in .38 spl plus Sarco had the barrel and cylinder for a good price so it went back like it came from the factory.
Larry

Not meant to hijack this thread, but is this similar to the gun that was taken from Lee Harvey Oswold in the theator?

Wingmaster

Wingmaster, Oswald bought a similarly altered to .38 Special "Commando Special" a cut-down and reamed Canadian Victory which he used to kill Ptrolman J.D. Tippitt.

You can pull it up, photo, ballistics report etc. at the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA).

All, Pate's book pegs the start of WWII 1905s in the 612,000 range, lower than I would have guessed.

Thanks Waidmann

Wingmaster

S/N: V510210

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David Wilson

Thanks Mr. Wilson. Some of the knowledge on this board is amazing.

Wingmaster