zonker5,

Thank you for your contribution! Based on information in the database, your revolver would have shipped mid-1943, probably May-June. Since it was acquired from an RAF pilot, may I presume that it is a 5"-barreled example in .38 S&W (NOT .38 Special)? If so, a historical letter will simply show that it shipped to the Hartford Ordnance District in Springfield, Mass.; there would be no records at the S&W factory to show where it was shipped from there.


retarmyaviator,

Yes, Charlie and I have that SN in the database already. Thanx again!

Steve

Sorry I left that out; it is a 5" 38 s&w.

Thanks for the info.

Steve,

You are more than welcome. I should get off my rear and send in for a factory letter on this one.

Steve, at V786640, that's really a late gun. There are "SV" prefixed postwar commercial examples with considerably lower numbers. Can you opine on when it may have shipped? After V-E day, even?

One other thing. Lee Jarrett advises that after December 1944, the butt swivels were changed over to a blued finish. I note this gun does have the supposedly superceded casehardened one....

I'm presuming that your revolver does not have a U.S. property mark on the topstrap and that you haven't gotten a letter for it. I can tell you I have one with a serial number less than 10 off from yours and it lettered to the United States Maritime Commission. Given the known history you cite, I'd have a strong hunch that yours also went to the U.S.M.C.

__________________
SWCA #590
"Colligo ergo sum"

Thanks Gooney, and Retarmyaviator

Two more for the data base, V451323 and V474094 (this one also has a P stamped after the sn on the bottom of the barrel). Both are 4" barrelled, 38 specials.

Neither has a sn on the butt, one has "US Property" faintly on the top strap. I don't know if these were buffed off in the refinishing or not, the rest of the markings are clear and crisp.

Both are of similar history. In 1952 a German Police Chief showed up at an American base and turned over a number of these saying "we don't need them anymore". They were put on sale at the post rod and gun club for $15 each and these two were purchased. They have been in the family ever since.

They were sent to a German gunsmith who refinished them in bright blue and checkered the grips. Feels like the action was worked on a bit, too. They are both excellent shoters!

Any information on dob, etc would be appreciated!

-Z-

zonker5,

Based on the database, both of these probably shipped from the S&W factory in late 1943: V451323 in November and V474904 in December.

*Which* one has the "U.S. PROPERTY" top strap marking? (Both likely had the marking originally, before the refinishing.)

In this period, the "P" proof usually appears in three places: in addition to the underside of the barrel, which you've mentioned, there were probably "P" markings removed from the upper left of the frame and the rear of the cylinder.

The removal of the serial numbers from the butts was a major faux pas. While the numbers remain on the barrels and cylinders, it is the number on the *frame* (i.e., the butt) that is the true serial number.

Steve

V451323 has a faint "US Property" on the top strap. The markings on the barrel are also faint. V474094 has nothing on the top strap and the barrel marking are much crisper.

The P marking does appear on the rear of the cylinder. I agree about the sn but that was done a bit before my time .


-Z-

This is one of the South African contract Pre-Victory models that made it to South Africa. The cylinder hasn't been altered, so it's in the original chambering of .38 S&W. There is a crown stamped on the frame below the cylinder on the right side of the gun. I don't have a picture of it, but there is also "BO" stamped at the bottom right of the right side grip.

6" barrel S&W revolver. At least related to Victory models.

Researching for my daughter-in-law's grandmother whose husband was a WWII and Korean War vet. They married in England during the war. He had collected 82 firearms of all descriptions and I am trying to catalog them.

Butt, inside right grip, barrel under extractor rod numbered: 730085.

Cylinder marked: V 164800 S.

Inside extractor star: 164800.

Canadian proof mark on butt; Upward arrow in side 'C'. Followed by 'P'.

Barrel right side: '38/380' stamped crudely, and '38 S.&W. CTG'.

Frame grip, right inside: Marks 'D' and 'B' plus 'OC' or 'CQ' or 'OO' overstruck, or links of chain?

Crane and number just below the crane recess are both: '65670'.

Cylinder parkerized, frame nicely blued. On right side: S&W trademark/logo + 'Made in USA' .

Checkered grips with apparently correct nickel S&W medallions.

I have many macro-focused pictures (large). I'll include two reduced in size here and more if useful. The inside grip marks are the ones I know least about.

Attached Images

	38-380 overview small.jpg (51.7 KB, 409 views)
	8 38-380 frame grip right inside small.jpg (100.0 KB, 388 views)

l just acquired this snubbie and it is serial # V 374223 with no british stamps at all and 38 specials fit like a glove ,hope some experts here will guide me as to what I have and guide me to where to look for markings .
Thanks, Bullstone

Your barrel has been cut off and refinished. I'm willing to bet if you look inside the cylinders you will see a ring where it has been reamed for the .38 special cases. If it says .38 S&W CTG on the right side of the barrel, you probably have a British lend-ease pistol. On the left top-strap it should have a U.S. Property marking (or maybe machining marks where it was ground off)

I swear I just saw it's twin in a pawn shop near Atlanta last week. Hmm.

gordonrick:
Thanks for the info ,I looked at the barrel side and top strap and found nothing as you stated probably ground off ,on the left side grip I found the letters V, S5 and 7.I have attached some more pictures of the cylinder and the left side for any additional comments you may be able to come up with.
Thanks Bullstone

Attached Images

	DSCN1120[1].JPG (3.5 KB, 511 views)
	DSCN1130[1].JPG (3.8 KB, 390 views)
	DSCN1123[1].JPG (11.6 KB, 336 views)
	DSCN1122[1].JPG (4.1 KB, 336 views)
	DSCN1121[1].JPG (3.8 KB, 417 views)

Hawat,

You have an earlier (circa Jan., 1940) British Service Revolver frame/barrel that was originally chambered in .38 Smith & Wesson. It has been fit with a .38 Special cylinder cannibalized from a later Victory Model (SN V164800, circa Nov., 1942). You should have the owner check to see if there's a spare (original) cylinder anywhere to be found.

The "38/380" marking was applied after it left the factory in order for the British to identify it as being chambered for their standard .38 loading (called ".380" by the Brits) as opposed to the identical model revolvers that were also obtained in the non-standard .38 Special chambering.

The "B.O." marking found under the right stock panel is believed by some to indicate "British Order." The other markings under the stocks are irrelevant assembly marks used to keep parts together during final assembly.

Steve

here it is and as far as i know still chambered for 38 s&w

v-486500

has british proof markings and parker hale front sight.

any more info you guys might have regarding this pistol would be great!

I recently received a Victory pistol with SN V769527. The gun has BNP markings in between barrel and cylinder and all around the cylinder. Right by the trigger is markings with swords and mb letters. The gun has been refinished and the S&W markings on right hand side almost not visible. The gun caliber has been changed to .22 magnum. The barrel length is 6 1/4". Not sure what the original caliber was. What would a pistol like this be valued at? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

100_7506.jpg100_7511.jpg100_7513.jpg100_7520.jpg100_7508.jpg

First off, welcome to the forum.

A very late Victory that has been extensively modified. One just like this was the topic of the following thread:

Fathers S&W , CAN ANYONE TELL ME ABOUT IT.

I'd judge that these were commercial conversions, done in the U.K. in the 1950's or 60's and then exported. A poor man's Model 48. Value largely dependent on how well it shoots.

__________________
SWCA #590
"Colligo ergo sum"

Here is one for the data base: V 204976, 4" barrel, .38 S&W Special Ctg., parkerized or "midnight blue?", extractor rod is bright blue. I saw no military markings except for an Ordnance Bomb stamped on the butt in front of the swivel. Stocks number to the gun. It is in very nice condition. No photos available as it is a buddie's gun.

I'm thinking ship date in early 1943?

Thanks.
Bill

4" Victory. #V 236578. Marked "U.S.NAVY" on top strap.

Attached Images

	20130412_175755_resized_1.jpg (68.3 KB, 63 views)
	20130412_175808_resized_1.jpg (69.6 KB, 51 views)
	20130412_175814_resized.jpg (112.6 KB, 52 views)
	20130412_175818_resized.jpg (100.1 KB, 43 views)
	20130412_175826_resized_1.jpg (58.6 KB, 53 views)

some more pics

Attached Images

	20130412_175840_resized_1.jpg (60.7 KB, 42 views)
	20130412_175854_resized_1.jpg (81.9 KB, 54 views)
	20130412_175859_resized_1.jpg (81.7 KB, 53 views)
	20130412_175938_resized_1.jpg (36.9 KB, 48 views)
	20130412_175944_resized_1.jpg (55.5 KB, 63 views)

Hello. I have a United States Maritime Commission Contract pistol. Sent to Reading, PA., Serial no. V491221. I just received my letter from S&W yesterday. My questions to those of you with more savvy than me is, was this then used by the Merchant Marines, or who? Does it command more value than the standard military issue? BTW, the barrel is not marked U.S. Property. I can post pictures later if anyone wants, but it is all there and original, in great condition as well. Sent to the Commission on Jan 13, 1944. Thanks in advance! Allen

hello! wow! Thanks for the information! I should be able to post photos and the letter this evening. I am hoping to get a rough or better idea of the value of it. Allen

Hi, just stumbled across this forum (researching a postwar USAF model 15-2) and had to join. I have several Victorys to add to your database. I can post pic's if you think they are needed. reply with your Email and I'll send you the rest of the serial #'s if you need them, I'm just a little uncomfortable with posting them ...Thank's in advance for any info you can provide.. John

1) V1763xx , 2" barrel (confirmed with factory letter), "UNITED STATES PROPERTY' marked top strap. I don't have the letter handy at the moment to see where the gun was shipped, but gun was purchased from vet who brought it home from Vietnam. ( I bought all his flight gear, VERY interesting individual, ex. USAF who flew various aircraft out of several bases in Thailand..)

2) V1794xx, 4" barrel, "US NAVY" marked top strap, unissued, one of 3 consecutive serial numbered guns that were brought home by a USN pilot who flew with VF-4 in WW2 ( he would only sell me one gun, so I don't know the other serials exactly...) No S&W letter yet on this gun.

3) V1642xx, 4" barrel, "U.S. Navy" marked top strap. Bought this gun and it's holster from another USN pilot along with his helmet, goggles, and several flight suits. ( he flew F6F Hellcats)

4) V84960, 5" barrel, 38 S&W, lend lease gun, "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" top strap, reimport, lots of british (?) proofs

I have an old Victory model .38 S&W 5 inch SN V768733, no US property markings or proof marks, I know it's not worth alot as it has been refinished, and the cylinders reamed, but it is a neat old gun that is a great shooter. I would still like to find out as much as I can about it.

Attached Images

	victory mod gaige 006.JPG (146.1 KB, 53 views)
	victory mod gaige 005.JPG (165.3 KB, 51 views)
	victory mod gaige 008.JPG (147.8 KB, 52 views)
	victory mod gaige 012.JPG (150.9 KB, 61 views)

__________________
THX , Roy

Here is another contribution to your Victory list. It is serial # 985XXX , has parkerized finish , marked "US PROPERTY" , butt marked WB and flaming bomb stamped.I display it with a short "Tanker" holster ,issued to armoured vehicle crews.Smith & wesson Victory model 002.jpg

Attached Images

Smith & wesson Victory model 001.jpg (83.9 KB, 42 views)

This is my Victory, the day I bought it and before I clean it up.

As you can see the serial number is V306937. chambered for .38 Special.

Attached Images

	Victory 3.JPG (247.5 KB, 25 views)
	Victory 4.JPG (282.0 KB, 27 views)
	Victory 5.JPG (255.0 KB, 27 views)

Delaware:

Thanks for the post. Are there any left top strap markings on your Victory?

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

No, they may have been removed. The gun is not in optimal condition.

At that SN (V306937), there would not have been a U. S. NAVY topstrap stamping applied. That practice ceased somewhat earlier. If a military revolver, the topstrap would have a U.S. PROPERTY stamping. But there are several reasons that there may never have been a topstrap stamping.

The LGS called me to look at V85597. It is a 4 inch 38 special. It has been refinished and any and all govt markings are gone.

"NO! According to S&W if the firearm was manufactured before 1977 +P ammo was not recommended."

LOL

Here's a 1942 VM (Navy contract with damaged 4" barrel swapped for a 5" tube that came on a 1939 commercial revolver, already in the data base) pictured with some of the thousands of +P and +P+ I fired through it for fun.

The +P hysteria continues...

__________________
No life story has happy end.

Sadly, my dad's Victory Model was stolen aboard his troop ship when he came home from the Korean War. A search was conducted but the gun was not found. The Navy officer in charge of the search figured the miscreant probably tossed it overboard. Dad carried it in a shoulder holster. I have pics of it, but the serial number is unknown. When dad got his orders to go to Korea, my grandfather took my dad and my dad's .22 auto (possibly a High Standard) to a local gun shop and swapped it for the Victory Model.

I have gotten a victory revolver V250XXX when my dad passed away. It has the original holster but the swivel is missing. 1. Are the swivels still available for that revolver? 2. Should I have it replaced if there are? 3. Should I get it insured?

Thank you for your help and information.

I didn't know about the database on my last inquiry. If those who maintain in can give me any info on mine, I'd appreciate it.
V 393573. Yolk numbers 47321 with an S below. Grip looks period but is oversized and hides the SN. Barrel has been replaced with a 6" slabside under a full length Bo-Mar sight rail.
Deep blue color.38 special. Very light single action trigger pull.
I've been told the modifications are most likely a PPC conversion but I know little about the guns early history.

Attached Images

Pistol 3.jpg (78.6 KB, 17 views)

The gun probably shipped in late 1943. Yes, it was modified to use for PPC shooting. I can just make out the last three digits of the serial number on the back of the cylinder and it appears to “373”, which doesn’t match the number you listed. It it doesn’t match, the cylinder was also replaced.

__________________
"I also cook."

Have one coming end of the week Ser# seems to be V316134 any idea?? THANKS

Mid-1943 (May/June). Please add the caliber and, once you have the gun, any markings.

Caliber is .38S&W-- will have to wait on arrival for any markings and a photo. THANKS! About as close as I came come to a birth year gun--- Oct 1944

I have a Victory model, serial # 495388, in .38 spl, that belonged to my grandfather. It is marked Bavaria Municipal Police. He purchased it while stationed in Germany with the USAF from Wiesbaden Rod and Gun Club in 1957 for $19.50. I have the sales receipt and the "Fire Arms Retention Authorization" card authorizing him to bring the revolver back to the United States. I plan to get request a letter on it in the near future but would appreciate any manufacture/ship date info. Thanks in advance.

__________________
FBINA 225

Your SN is actually V495388. The closest SN on my list to it is V495759 which shipped on 1/18/44. Noting that S&W was producing around 1000 revolvers per day, it would not be surprising to find that yours had been shipped on the same day or at least within several days of it. I have understood that many of these occupation period German and Austrian civil police Victories were sold off to GIs through military Rod and Gun clubs in Germany when the German police were allowed to purchase other guns in the 1950s. Yours is the first indication I have seen showing the sales price. BTW, there was an article in the December 2014 American Rifleman about the postwar German police Victory revolvers. Just Google "Cold War K-Frames". Definitely you should safeguard that sales paperwork as it adds substantial value to the gun.

It is probably not worthwhile to spend $100 for a letter as it will not tell you much more about it other than providing the exact shipping date.

The US occupation authorities handed several thousand US Victory models in .38 Special, including yours, over to the Bavarian government on Feb. 2, 1946. They all had previous careers elsewhere and were gathered after the war‘s end for this new mission, so your letter would likely show shipment to a Navy yard or similar destination.

Starting around 1952 the Manurhin-Walther PP became available and Bavarian police were one of the first customers, phasing out and selling the revolvers, for which the US had demanded payment in the meantime. The Rod and Gun Clubs on US bases where your grandfather acquired the gun were popular outlets.

Great heirloom from your Granddad!

I've attached the serial number specific part of Roy's letter for mine -- a wee bit earlier than yours, perhaps -- to give you an idea of what you'll get.

An Air Force civilian bought mine at the Schwäbisch Hall R&G Club in Bavaria in 1965 -- not far from where it had been in German police service. The back strap reads, "SK . fürth . Mun," which Absalom believes means the stadtkreis (city/county) of Fürth, and "municipal."

I have the R&G Club receipt and all the Army papers that allowed him to bring it to the states, too. I don't recall the price, but I don't think it was as low as yours.

In the area of the frame where yours says, "Bavaria Municipal Police," a German importer/exporter milled that off of mine and replaced it with his company logo: "HEGE SCHW HALL."

The left side proof marks include the standard German "nitro" proof mark, the two-digit year the revolver passed through the proof house, and the stag horn proof mark of the Ulm Proof House.

I think mine led a mighty boring life, no matter whose hands it passed through.

Attached Images

	Jinks letter, pg 2a.jpg (104.5 KB, 29 views)
	Victory Left side with grips.jpg (111.3 KB, 26 views)
	Victory -- German proof marks -- 'Nitro' + 65 for 1965 + the Ulm proof house's stag horn.JPG (93.8 KB, 26 views)
	Victory back strap - bright.jpg (83.8 KB, 29 views)

__________________
Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

I just picked up S&W Victory Model S/N: V167622 at the LGS. I posted this earlier: Bought today, Victory Model, What have I got?

__________________
USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Serial # 916322 matching on bottom of grip frame, cylinder and barrel. 38 S&W CTG; Made in USA; WB, P and "bomb" stamped on bottom of grip frame; "United States Property" stamped on top; hammer and trigger case hardened; smooth wood grips; NZ 2921 stamped on top of backstrap below hammer. Appears to be original bluing with lots of wear and patina. Tight lock-up and tight cylinder gap. I don't think the lanyard ring is original.

Any thoughts on dates and/or markings is appreciated.

Thanks.

Attached Images

	1.jpg (185.3 KB, 25 views)
	2.jpg (193.4 KB, 24 views)
	8.jpg (70.9 KB, 28 views)
	4.jpg (97.1 KB, 23 views)
	5.jpg (107.8 KB, 24 views)

You have a former Lend-Lease British Service Victory from mid-1942 which was modified after the war for commercisl sale, by shortening the barrel from 5“, refinishing in nickel, and adding aftermarket grip panels. Markings were likely removed during the refinish. The gun was likely converted to fit .38 Special, which you can easily try out.

You have a largely original Lend-Lease gun that went to New Zealand. The serial puts it in early 1942, maybe February, before the V prefix started. The lanyard ring is indeed the standard round British type; S&W rings were oval. The stampings on the butt are standard ordnance inspection marks, WB for Waldemar Broberg, the P is a military proof. You should also check whether it’s been converted, although yours is more likely to still be the original .38 S&W.

KY1911:

You might want to take a look at the underside of the barrel for the marking N.A., Inc. That is the import marking of Navy Arms which was principally responsible for the import of the New Zealand guns. Because the marking is so lightly struck many observers fail to see it.

Regards,
Charlie

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Just picked this up and I'm hoping someone could share a bit of info and history. Six inch barrel in 38S&W; bluing appears to be original. Not sure if grips are original, but they are fit to the frame perfectly. S/N 740765 - matching on frame, cylinder and barrel. "P" on the butt with serial #. Variety of British proofs (BV, BP, NP) as well as "Not English Made" stamped twice - once on barrel and once on frame. C with an up arrow proof on the frame. Crossed swords with an "E", "B" and "1" on the frame. Any thoughts? Thanks much.

Attached Images

	Brit 1.jpg (146.3 KB, 23 views)
	Brit 2.jpg (140.9 KB, 20 views)
	Brit 6.jpg (84.6 KB, 19 views)
	Brit 4.jpg (78.9 KB, 23 views)
	Brit 5.jpg (86.4 KB, 17 views)

Interesting gun.

It’s originally from spring 1941, likely March/April, and was deliverd to Canada likely on a direct-purchase contract, but possibly through the British Purchasing Commission. That’s where it got the Canadian military property stamp arrow/C. But it ended its career in Britain or at least in the hands of a British surplus dealer who had it commercially proofed at Birmingham for sale in 1954; those are the proofs on the barrel and frame, including the crossed-sceptres viewmark (E=1954).

The stocks are earlier, 1920s non-medallion M&P stocks.

Thanks very much for the quick reply and info. Fascinating.