I think this is one of the South African Pre-Victory models that made it to South Africa. I'm basing this on the markings on the back-strap. The cylinder hasn't been altered, so it's in the original chambering of .38 S&W. There is a crown stamped on the frame below the cylinder on the right side of the gun.

Lobo,
Yep that one made it to S.A. (Thats South Africa not south Ala). Mine doesn't have the crown on it but has a rack number further down the backstrap below the broad arrow U (Trio of british service revolvers post). Your blue is better than mine but like yours is missing the orig grips and lanyard ring. I hope yours shoots as well as mine. The .38 S&W has become one of my favorite calibers and since Midway got some brass back in stock a few months ago, I get to shoot a lot more.
Larry

Lobo, Oldiron gave you good advice. Very nice looking SA gun. The gun appears to be in outstanding condition, all you need is the proper grips and a lanyard ring.

__________________
John. SWCA #1586

What are the proper grips? Would it be the smooth grips like found on Victory models?

These are the original stocks and lanyard.



This is the correct cleaning rod.






Cheers;
Lefty

[QUOTE=oldflatfoot;136286078]
These are the original stocks and lanyard.



This is the correct cleaning rod.








Pics like these and the information that comes with them are the reason the S & W forum is so darn good. I mean come on! Really?? A South African lanyard and unopened box of cleaning rods!!

Can I borrow your time machine one day??? I just need it for a day.

Very, very nice Lefty!

And of course, you MUST have a few matching accessories.


The holster is correct for a Victory model, I'm not sure what they used in South Africa for a holster. Probably similar leather for officers who likely private purchased their kits, or issue web gear like the Brits used? Somewhere, I have a Lee Enfield MkIV .303 with a Union of South Africa cartouche, can't seem to find the photo at the moment.

Cheers;
Lefty

A few answers and corrections from South Africa! Pattern '38 webbing was made locally, but shortage of materials and equipment resulted in somewhat lower standards. Fram seem to have been the main manufacturer-see picture.

The lanyard illustrated by Lefty is the British pattern for S&W and Colt revolvers that had a flat lanyard "ring" and would not take the normal lanyard with a loop at the gun end. The SA Union Defence Force lanyard was a flat leather one with a clip at the end (as the British one). It looks like a thin dog lead.

The cleaning rods packet illustrated is a British one contaning S&W "wipers". I have found no definite information to support South Africa having received the same type of rod. Indeed one file enclosure in the archives appears to show that the S&Ws came with a cleaning brush, rather than a wiper.

Thanks for the serial number and UDF number Lefty; one more for my database of UDF S&Ws.

Peter

Attached Images

Fram 1.jpg (95.1 KB, 33 views)

Peter-

Do you know why they ordered four-inch barrels, when the holsters are made for five-inchers?

I've seen pics of Webley MK VI's wih four-inch barrels, also supposedly made for South Africa. Some had barrels like MK V's and others had the usual MK VI front sights.

I've read somewhere that these guns were being used in the prison sytem by the 1960's. I think they were originally military issue.

Did SA adopt .38 revolvers when the UK did?

The cleaning rods I posted are/were made for 4 inch barrel guns specifically. They are too short for use with longer barrels. My "SA" revolvers never made it to the Cape. They were part of the shipment diverted to Britain, as Peter has pointed out in his research and do not bear the "U" cartouche/proof mark.

Cheers;
Lefty

Sorry about the delay in answering Texas. The UDF and SA Police (SAP) had always used 4" Webleys, with the exception of some UDF Mark VI (6") between the wars. Those were carried in open bottom leather holsters with 2" of barrel protruding! I am sure that when the the 4" S&W order was placed no one has thinking about holsters. Indeed they didn't remember ammo until several months later!

I can find nothing in the archives concerning the locally made P '37 webbing - very annoying! - but it was most certainly thought of and made after the guns were ordered.

Yes, the 4” Mk VI Webleys were ordered (qty 200 apparently) in 1935 for the SAP. They all have integral front sights as on the earlier Marks. They were passed on to the Prisons Service around 1960 and are usually found with the S.A.P. mark removed or cancelled and G.D.P.S. (Prisons Service in Afrikaans and English) engraved on them.

The UDF had been thinking of adopting the Enfield 38 throughout the 1930s, but had no money. Come the start of WW II they had to frantically obtain equipment from the US – the British needed everything they had for themselves.

Peter

Very nice South African M&P!

Those cleaning rods could also be used to open contemporary cans of coffee, and the long shank makes them particularly well adapted to opening them upside down.

__________________
David Wilson

Peter-

Thanks! Looks as if your bureaucrats were about like ours. Too little, too late.


BTW, I read an account of tank warfare in the North African desert, by a South African officer. I think he was a cricket star before the war.

He mentioned .38 revolvers, but not the make.

Now that I think of it, I believe he was actually serving in the Royal Tank Regiment. They had Stuart tanks, made in the USA. But he mentioned meeting South African troops and being glad to hear the accent again.

I believe the title is, "Blazing Chariots", if anyone wants to look for it. Good book.

The author's name was Crisp (not a good name for a tank officer), and the book was Brazen Chariots. He also wrote one about the British retreat from Greece called "The Gods were Neutral". You must have read the book with a lot more attention than I did, because I don't remember any reference to a 38 revolver. It's an excellent book and I recommend it highly.

What is the overall length of you rods Lefty? Charles Pate (Secondary Pistols and Revolvers page 287) gives three lengths: 9 1/4"; 9 13/16"; and 10 5/8". I have one of each and the shortest is long enough to clean at least a 5" barrel. Was there a shorter one?

Peter

Peter;

I'll have to lay my hands on them and measure. They are in storage (I think?) so it may be awhile before I can get them. I'll let you know.

Cheers;
Lefty

Cyrano-

Yes! Robert Crisp. "The Brazen Chariots." I also read his book about the retreat from Greece.

I'll try to find the book and locate the reference(s) to revolvers. I tend to look for such things in war books.

I was amused by your observation that "Crisp" is not a good name for a tank officer.