Hi all - I'm new to the forum. I have a virtually mint condition .455. Is it safe to fire Fiocchi .45 short ammunition through it ? I inherited it with 30 .450 short (corto) greased rounds from 1976 in the case with it...

I received new info regarding the above firearm - it must be a post 1916 MkII hand ejector model.
The name "Smith&Wesson" engraved on the side of the barrel does not have any caliber markings after it as in most of the photo's I have seen. I was told by my father that it is a .455 and there is what I assume to be a Webley .455 MkII cartridge along with the Fiocchi .450 cartridges in the case. All very confusing.

Welcome. I had a similar problem recently. I found a couple of boxes of 450 corto but I passed on them. I waited until I could locate some .455 MarkII. It is occassionaly manufactured by Hornaday and Fiochi. I got some Hornaday 455 by going to gun shows. It can be over a 1$ a round when found. If you want to shoot it much, reloading is the way to go. We love pictures, please post one if you can.

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Dennis

Your gun is a Triple Lock? In that nice a condition? Pictures!

Welcome to the Forum.

Yes, .455 ammo is safe in your revolver.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

YES. 450 was often used as a light target load in 455 revolvers. Fiocchi 450 is rather hot for old 450 revolvers designed for black powder, but you 455 S&W is msde of sterner stuff!

Peter

The 455 Mk II Smith TL revolver 1st models; the conversions (from 44 Spl) and the c. 5000 1st contract guns as well as the non-TL 2nd models are all chambered the same. They are chambered for the 455 Mk I, a black powder round, and the 455 Colt, a smokeless round the same length as the Mk I, both of which are longer than the 455 Mk II, a more modern shorter round for greater efficiency with its smokeless powder loading. The 455 Mk II is what all 455 Smiths were intended to use even though the chambers are long enough for the earlier rounds.

Therefore the shorter 455 Mk II headspaces on the rim. The 45 ACP happens to be the same length as the longer 455 Colt and 455 Mk I, and its taper crimped case will chamber in 455 Smiths by headspacing on the case mouth. Also it extends out of the chamber the same amount as any of the 455 rimmed cartridges and therefore exactly the correct amount for proper spacing to the breechface and reliable firing pin ignition.

What does this all mean? It means that you can safely fire the much CHEAPER and much more AVAILABLE 45 ACP in a 455 chambered Smith revolver! Of course you can not use 1/2 or full moon clips and the ejector star will not eject the cases. However the ACP case in standard loadings will usually fall from the chambers or at least far enough to grip with the fingers. At worst they can be poked out with a pencil.

As was said by another poster above, the Smiths are made of sterner stuff. For sure there is no concern w/45 ACP standard loadings and probably any 45 ACP factory load. But as a conservative measure, I stick to the standard loadings.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Those .455's were not heat-treated as were our M-1917's. If the above post is correct in that .45 ACP can be fired in them, I'd keep in mind that they weren't proofed for those higher pressures.

But some have been converted to .45 ACP and to .45 Colt, so people get away with it. I probably wouldn't do it.

It may be a moot point now! I just found out that 455s don't have chambers, they have charge holes (no shoulder in the chamber) and 45 ACPs fall too far in. I must have a non-standard cylinder that I need to check out.

Maybe that's why conversion to 45 Colt was so common; rechambering wasn't needed, just recess the chamber slightly for part of the thickness of the Colt rim or shave the rear of the cylinder.

I believe the pressure of the 455 and the ACP are in the same ballpark, around 14,000 CUP.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

To get a .455 cylinder to accept .45 Colt still requires a little reaming. While the cylinder doesn't have a headspacing shoulder, it does have a slight throat toward the front. This throat needs to be relieved a little to let the longer 45 Colt to chamber all the way in. (In addition to doing something, as stated, to allow for the slightly thicker rim of the Colt. But nowhere near as much as has to be done to use .45ACP or Auto Rim.)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

"I received new info regarding the above firearm - it must be a post 1916 MkII hand ejector model.
The name "Smith&Wesson" engraved on the side of the barrel does not have any caliber markings after it as in most of the photo's I have seen. I was told by my father that it is a .455 and there is what I assume to be a Webley .455 MkII cartridge along with the Fiocchi .450 cartridges in the case. All very confusing"

Yes it is confusing. If you get 455Webley or 450corto you will be good to go. You have either a 1st model or a 2nd Model.

First Model.


Second Model.


The diffference is the ejector rod housing, the 1st model has it and the 2nd model doesn't. I would ask for a serial number but the serial numbers for these are confusing too.

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Dennis

Without looking, I recall that .45ACP runs about 19,000, and .45 Colt 14,000. Never saw .455 pressures.

Just read an old article in Handloader by Brian Pearce that lists .44-40 loads in the 13,000 range. That was normal then, the larger cases evidently giving less pressure than the smaller .45 ACP case.The ACP also had to generate high enough pressures to operate the gun, usually an autoloader.

Not so! The Service pressure of the 45 ACP exceeds the Proof pressure of the 455. It is defintely not a good idea to shoot 45 ACP in a Webley, but I don't know about the Smith. However, the post about the 1917 S&Ws having heat treated cylinders should sound a warning I would think.

Peter

I would be reluctant to fire the .450 Corto in it, at least until I knew when and where it was made. My concern would be that it is corrosive and can cause problems if the revolver is not promptly and completely cleaned after firing this ammunition. To boot, you may get misfires or handfires, which can be a serious concern in a revolver.

Cabellas had some Hornady .455 Mk II last time I was there. Fiocchi currently makes these as well, so there is no need to shoot the old, possibly unreliable ammunition. Besides, that old stuff may be collectable.

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You're shy a few manners.

My handloads never exceed 14,000 in 45 ACP. 455 Mk II is 14,000. But upon rechecking you're correct, factory 45 ACP is between 20-21,000.

Thank you,

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Hondo-

You're very welcome! I'm glad to have helped.

Do you even shoot .45 ACP in autos? Do you get reliable operation at those lower pressures? I insist that .45 ACP work autos and give modern ballistics, no matter the gun in which it's fired.

Pressure measuring has changed from when CUP replaced PSI figures. My 19,000 figure may be from the older system. I'd have to look it up, and I haven't reloaded in years. Most here probably don't, which is why FACTORY pressure figures are so important. Handloaders usually know what they're doing, and SHOULD understand the limitations of their older guns.

But some don't! Even the famous gun writer Skeeter Skelton overloaded a Colt M-1917 .45 with a heavy charge of Unique. He got a cracked chamber.

Texas Star,

I do shoot 45 Auto loaders, an original 1911 from WW I, a ’57 era A1 government model and a pair of factory Colt Gold cups; one from ’68 with the lightened slide and a 70 Series from ’76 w/the heavy slide Colt returned to. However they are not my go to defense guns, which is a 296 L frame 5 shot in 44 Spl. So I do not shoot much hardball but when I do it’s from the gov’t model. The Gold Cups are from my Bullseye shooting days and get a steady diet of cast lead bullets in my reloads. Six grains of 231 w/200 gr bullet (14,000) is the hottest I shoot so it does function the Gold Cups of course, but my other Colt’s autos as well. I’ve not had a problem with loads as low as 5 grs Unique w/same bullet in all guns. I just don’t need a lot of recoil and when I do, I shoot the 500 or 296 w/defensive loads.

I generally shoot only my Unique reloads in revolvers; the 455 TL, 1917 and ’50 Target. Same as my ACP loads but in rimmed cases because I don’t like dealing with moon clips; either 45 AR but mostly cut down 45 Schofield cases trimmed to ACP length in the 17 and 50, I call them my 45 S&W Specials. ACP cases in the 455 as mentioned above in an earlier post. I found out my 455 cylinder is modified to shoot ACP w/o clips and still shoot 455s w/its thin rim.

Yes CUP has changed to PSI and I’ve done the math to convert figures and sometimes they seem to come out right but in some calibers the conversion just makes no sense. So I’m pretty conservative and stay at comfortable levels; I like my guns too much!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I'm working from memory here so I could be off a bit but I remember
the article by Skeeter Skelton about cracking a 1917 revolver chamber.
The gun was, as I recall, a 1917 S&W and the load was 7.5 grs Unique
under a Keith 255 gr SWC. It was a load recommended by Keith but a
bit much for an old 1917.

My impression from reading his handloading articles is that Mr. Keith did not mind pushing the envelope.

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You're shy a few manners.

I think this is a different gun, although the same load. The Colt was sold to a friend, who soon brought it back with the damage. I think he swore to firing only a few rounds of factory ammo, and accused Skelton of pounding the gun with heavy loads, which made it fail. Skelton took it back, agreeing that this was probably the case.

I knew Elmer Keith slightly, had breakfast with him at a press function at the NRA convention and talked with him extensively on a few other occasions. I think I've read all of his material.

I liked Elmer and got on very well with him. I think he meant what he wrote and was honest. But he had no way to measure pressure, other than looking for hard extraction and cratered primers. Most of his loads were developed well before handloaders even had chronographs. He did have the H.P. White Lab chrono some of his loads.

I think he was often skating closer to the edge than he realized. One of his .45 Colt guns blew the rear of the barrel, in THREE places! That was on a SAA, in the 1920's. He then went to the .44 Special, where he had thicker cylinder chambers. I don't know how old the SAA was, but he presumably had sense enough not to fire that ammo in a black powder-rated gun. Colt's later guns are stronger, but I'd still use common sense in loading for them.

I doubt that M-1917 .45's should be fired with ammo much hotter than standard pressure stuff. I wouldn't even shoot modern Plus P ammo in one. The postwar .45's are stronger, but don't how much so.

With the Triple Lock and Second Model .455's, I wouldn't load hotter than standard factory ammo. By the early 1920's, the Second Models were being heat-treated, as was the Third Model, made mainly for Wolf & KLar. I think it arrived in 1926. But a 250 grain Keith bullet has more bearing surface in the barrel than a normal RN bullet, I bet, and raises pressures a little.To avoid shaking the gun loose prematurely and for safety, I think 950 FPS from a six-inch barrel is enough to ask of handloads. A load with that bullet at 900 FPS should be enough for most needs, maybe to 1,000 FPS for special needs, especially in postwar guns.
Keith was loading to 1,200 FPS

A lot of people used his loads and didn't blow up the guns, but I bet they were at or above proof pressures in many cases.

I've posted this pic before which gives a good view of the original 455 chambers with the very sloped sholder.
One contains a factory 45 ACP round pushed as far as it will go.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

"By the early 1920's, the Second Models were being heat-treated, as was the Third Model, made mainly for Wolf & KLar. I think it arrived in 1926."

Smith & Wesson shipped the first order of 1926 .44s to Wolf & Klar on January 27, 1927. It contained 75 5" nickel revolvers.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Is ".450 Corto" the same as ".450 Adams"?

Keep in mind that "Corto" is Spanish for "Short" when reading the following passage from Frank Barnes' book Cartridges of the World:

450 Revolver / 450 Adams
... It is often listed as the 450 Short, 450 Adams or 450 Colt. ...

So extrapolating just a little from CotW, .450 Corto and .450 Adams are two different names for the same cartridge.

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You're shy a few manners.

.450 Adams, it is, I think. And I'll tell you this: if I was Dr. Watson and Holmes wanted me to take my old service revolver after the Hound of the Baskervilles, I think I'd buy a more powerful gun!

But Doyle didn't know guns well, and I think all he said about Dr. Watson's was that it was his old service revolver. I'm guessing that'd make it an Adams, given the timing, or a similar Tranter in .450.


Those things were seriously underpowered.

We know that Dr. Watson served in the Boer War (circa 1902 IIRC), as did a young Winston Churchill. Knowing that British officers supplied their own side arms, and indeed that Churchill bought a Mauser "Broomhandle", it would seem within reason that Watson's service revolver might have been just about anything available at the time.

Obviously, Churchill did not limit himself to an arm that fired the then-standard British service cartridge, so it's possible that Watson didn't either.

Having said all that, I always pictured Dr. Watson armed with a Webley Mark IV, chambered in .455 Webley, of course.

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You're shy a few manners.

Good picture of the chamber Lee. I was pretty sure there recalled a shoulder on 455 chambers that were not converted, but I had to check. I just dropped a 45LC in one of my original 2nd Models and it stops about 3/8 " short of chambering. A 45 Schofield stops about 1/8" short of chambering. The diameter of the front of the cylinder is .455" and the back of the chamber to the shoulder is 480". Perhaps those that have no visible shoulder have been reamed for 45LC without changing the barrel markings?

Now I can't help picturing Holmes and Watson facing down the Hound with a Broomhandle!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I'm too lazy to do my research in The Complete Sherlock Holmes Stories, but I think Dr Watxon served in India in the 1890s (1880's?), and possibly was wounded in Afghanistan. Don't know what the Brits were carrying in those days. Anyone more familair with the Sherlock Holmes stories please comment.

Some photo's of my .455 S&W circa 1916 which was my Grandfather's sidearm as a pilot during WW1 along with the ammo I inherited with it. Webley .455 MKII and .450 Fiocchi Corto (1976) I also have the original leather holster in near mint condition.

Attached Images

	S&W.455 right.jpg (155.0 KB, 231 views)
	Ammo Webley .455 and Fiocchi .450 corto.jpg (90.1 KB, 154 views)

Sweet gun!

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

I posted photos of my Second Model .455 on this thread:

S&W .455 Mk. II Hand Ejector 2nd Model #69234

They are sweet guns and the .455 Mk II is a fine cartridge if properly handled.

I chronicled some of my loading for the .455 Mk II in this thread:

Loading .455 Mk II

I actually need to bring the loading thread up to date and hope to do so before long. It would be good to have others post their loading experiences on that thread.