NEW VICTORY MODEL

[m-1911]

Last weekend I picked up this US Victory Model for $175, including a nice BOYT USN marked shoulder holster
I assume that the markings and proof marks indicate that it is post war German Police issue. It is all matched with a minty bore. Any info would be appreciated.

[digi-shots]

Hi Gary,

Cool looking Victory!

You didn't mention if the right side of the barrel was stamped .38 SPECIAL or .38 S&W. Many of the Victory models sent overseas were in .38 S&W CTG.

I believe the "stag" stamp with 65 denotes the year 1965 and city of ULM in Germany. Similar stampings are seen on Walthers.

The German eagle over N is the German proof mark + N for nitro.

Are there any markings or stampings on the butt of the gun (in addition to the serial number) ?

oopps... just realized your photo says .38 special... hmmm... I'm interested in a pic of the butt of the gun

[m-1911]

There is a M or W on the butt preceding the "V"

Looks as if the USP on the top strap was removed

[Goony]

I agree with Linda about the gun being proofed at Ulm in 1965.

I believe the "HEGE" over "SCHW. HALL" marking indicates it was handled by Hebsacker Gesellschaft located in the city of Schwäbisch Hall, Baden-Württemberg.

[DWalt]

It may just be a shadow, but is there something wrong with the end of the barrel at the cylinder?

[digi-shots]

Originally Posted by m-1911

There is a M or W on the butt preceding the "V"

Looks as if the USP on the top strap was removed

Gary, I had a "gut" feeling there might be a W or M on the butt.

Look closely at the top strap, there's a good possibility there was never a "US Property" stamp to begin with.

Is there a bomb or ordnance stamp on the butt?

There were some Victory models that shipped to both the US Maritime Commission and also US Navy in Roslyn, Virginia in this serial number range. Both shipments were void of any US Property markings on the topstrap.

If it was mine, I'd have it lettered. My guess for a shipping date will be very late 1943 (Dec.) or early 1944 (Feb. - US Maritime shipment).

Hopefully, Charlie Flick will come along and give a little more info on this one.

Congrats on a nice find!

[Tom Doniphon]

Gary, your Victory Model likely shipped in Dec. 1943.

The W mark on the butt is still a mystery. It shows up from time to time on Victory revolvers in the high 400,000 to low 500,000 serial number range.

I have V498607 that also has the W mark on the butt. It was shipped to the USN in Rosslyn, Virginia on Dec. 30, 1943. Other than a P proof mark on the upper left frame, it has no US property or inspection marks. It has that same milled out area where your's is marked "HEGE"/"SCHW. HALL", but is devoid of any markings there. And it ended up in Germany like your revolver because it has the "GECO" mark of the German firearms/ammunition maker Gustav Genschow Co. as well as German proof marks.

[DCWilson]

Hmm. Relying on Pate I had allowed myself to think that the W on a Victory butt was the indicator for a guard gun sold to Western Electric. These guns would have been DSC authorizations and would not ordinarily have had the US PROPERTY stamp.

Probably there is more going on than I have been able to imagine. I will be watching this thread with interest.

Until I saw this gun, I thought that the Austrian and German Victories were all in 38 S&W. I didn't know that some four-inch .38 Specials had made it into European service as well.

The education continues!

This is an interesting revolver. Thanks for posting.

[digi-shots]

Yes, interesting gun!

If there's no ordnance bomb on the butt, I'm betting it'll letter as a USN Roslyn, Virginia Victory... shipped in December of 1943. I think there's at least two December 1943 Roslyn shipments, December 21, 1943 and December 30, 1943.

I've got two .38 Special Victory models with the same markings and they both lettered to the USN Roslyn, Va.
One has a post war German stamping on the backstrap and the other does not. Both shipped December 21, 1943.

The 1903 Colts that had Roslyn destinations were designated OSS shipments.

[Tom Doniphon]

"Until I saw this gun, I thought that the Austrian and German Victories were all in 38 S&W. I didn't know that some four-inch .38 Specials had made it into European service as well."

Many of these revolvers in 38 special were used by the allies during the post War occupation of German and Austria.

[Goony]

I am posting photos of Tom's V498607 on his behalf.

Originally Posted by Tom Doniphon

Many of these revolvers in 38 special were used by the allies during the post War occupation of German and Austria.

I don't know if I'd characterize it as "many" - some were undoubtedly employed by U.S. occupation forces, but the overwhelming majority of those furnished to the polizei in Germany and Austria appear to have been of the British Service Revolver pattern, even within the U.S. zone. That said, the occasional 4" .38 Special with polizei markings does turn up.

The two guns pictured in this thread might be ex-polizei, maybe even originally OSS too, but their later markings and proofing strongly suggests they ultimately were merchandised in the German civilian market, most likely during the 1960's.

[digi-shots]

Here are a couple of a Victory without any US Property stampings. Looks can be deceiving, it appears to be a "DSC - Defense Supply" Victory... however, it was shipped to the US NAVY, Rosyln, Virginia.

Another interesting note... the grips are NOT numbered to the gun, however they also "letter" to the US NAVY, Rosyln, Virginia and were shipped on the same date as this Victory. This could be a factory error, or perhaps whoever stamped the "M" on the butt took the grips off the guns and didn't put them back on the proper gun.

[Goony]

You don't say so, Linda, but that particular shipping destination has been associated with guns provided to the OSS, which could account for the lack of government property markings. Tom's V498607 also was originally sent to Rosslyn.

Besides Defense Supplies Corp. allocated Victory's, and the "Navy" guns like yours and Tom's, the other substantial contract for the plain topstrap variety was that under which they were furnished to the United States Maritime Commission. Below is a picture of one of these, in the V464000 serial number range, but not shipped until February of 1944.



Back to the other two revolvers with the milled out areas on their sides - it's easy to see how they could be ex-polizei when you look at the markings on the example in the following thread:

Bavaria Municipal Police Victory

Note, however, that the gun shown there is the more typical (for postwar polizei issue) 5" .38 S&W variant.

In any event, I think Gary would be well advised to letter his Victory.

[opoefc]

FWIW, Charlie Pate has rescinded his postulation in his book, "U.S.Handguns of WW2" that the "W" mark related to Western Electric and now believes the connection to German occupation Victory Models is more likely the reason for the stamping. This same "W" mark is seen on other small arms provided the German Police units, such as M-1 Carbines. Ed.

[web455]

I picked up a Victory model s/n V145392 4 inch. Commercial blue no military markings. Walnut checkered diamond grips with S&W medallion. What do I have? Any info is appreciated.

Tony

[Goony]

Originally Posted by web455

I picked up a Victory model s/n V145392 4 inch. Commercial blue no military markings. Walnut checkered diamond grips with S&W medallion. What do I have? Any info is appreciated.

Tony

First off, welcome to the forum, Tony. This post probably would have been better placed as the start of a new thread, however.

Your Victory most likely dates to late 1942, but the stocks (grips) are not correct, and this model was never blued, so its value as a historical artifact has pretty much been negated.