S&W pre model 10 date check

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I just picked up a 4", K-frame,38 special. Serial number S9182XX. It has the original grips numbered to the revolver. It has 5 screws and the barrel is pinned. Would someone please tell me when it was manufactured? Also, are these pistols rated for +P loads or should I just use standard velocity? Thank you in advance.
 
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From sometime in 1947. You can use +P with no problems, but I don't know why you would want to. Its performance is only marginally better than standard .38 Special ammunition, and it costs more. Paper and tin cans won't know the difference.
 
DWalt said:
From sometime in 1947. You can use +P with no problems, but I don't know why you would want to. Its performance is only marginally better than standard .38 Special ammunition, and it costs more. Paper and tin cans won't know the difference.
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Thank you very much.
 
I have #S813907 which is a 5" M&P and very transitional. It has the long action (and of course, pre-war hammer), the external relief around the hammer pivot axle, a pre-war thumb latch, a barrel shaped ejector rod, pre-war barrel, one line address, and pre-war magnas (numbered to the gun). It was shipped out of the factory in March 1946.

DSC_6060_01.jpg
 
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Very nice, Captain!
The neatest thing about this example is the in-the-white medallion retainer on the correctly numbered stocks. Thanks for posting this. I'm compiling data on these transition M&P revolvers and this one is going into the database.
This example is in very nice shape and your pic is great.
The shipping date checks with lots of other transition guns in the same general serial number group. It seems lots and lots of these left the factory that month. But they do not all share the same features.
Good post.
Jack
 
One additional comment. I would not refer to this as a "pre-Model 10," simply because it has the long throw hammer. The change to the "speed hammer" is what delineates a "pre-model" gun, in my humble opinion. It is better, I think, to call revolvers like this one a .38 M&P Transition Model, or a postwar .38 M&P.
Jack
 
Or, as I like to call the S-prefix SNs, a "post-Victory" model. But "postwar" is also OK. I have always considered the true "pre-Model 10s" to be those from C1 to about C400000 (when the MOD. 10 stamping inside the crane started).
 
I failed to mention, this one is on what I think was a surplus Victory frame. It has a factory-plugged hole for a lanyard loop.
 
I wouldn't think so, but anything's possible. The early SV commercial revolvers all have the lanyard loop holes, but I doubt that the S-series did. But S&W would add lanyard loops on order, and some PDs wanted them that way. Could be that there were some un-SNed wartime frames available which S&W numbered in the S-series for commercial sale.
 
I guess I'll have to take a picture to make you a believer. Not tonight, though.

I bought the revolver from a gent on this forum from the classifieds.
 
CptCurl said:
I guess I'll have to take a picture to make you a believer. Not tonight, though.

I bought the revolver from a gent on this forum from the classifieds.
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Curl-

I no longer believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, but have no hesitation in believing in your gun.

The question was asked if S&W had frames from Victory Model production that would be numbered as civilian guns and finished as such. I would be amazed if that was not the case. They probably had quite a number of frames that were originally destined for .38-200 and US Victory Models, and I feel sure they were what was used for postwar production. No reason to think that some frames had not been numbered prior to use in commercial production.

I'm not an advanced collector, but tend to think that any guns made in this period and having a lanyard hole plugged were from Victory Model origin, but completed as commercial items.

P.S .: I looked at your link to see the ad. Can you get that rust off with a lead pencil? It looks very small, unless it extends a lot under the grip. Have you had the sideplate off to check the action for rust or congealed oil, etc? If you shoot it, let us know how it fares.
 
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Texas Star said:
Curl-

. . .


P.S .: I looked at your link to see the ad. Can you get that rust off with a lead pencil? It looks very small, unless it extends a lot under the grip. Have you had the sideplate off to check the action for rust or congealed oil, etc? If you shoot it, let us know how it fares.
Click to expand...

Yes the revolver cleaned up perfectly inside and out. It shows practically no use. My imperfect photo above was snapped on my work bench after I detailed it.

I have not shot it at this date.

Incidentally, just yesterday I took ownership of another transitional M&P bearing S/N S936150. This is a breath-taking gun and appears unfired. It is a 2" snubby. Characteristics:
* Long action, pre-war hammer;
* Old style barrel with half-penny sight;
* Post-war diamond center magnas, matching number;
* No bevel or relief around hammer axle pin - smooth on left side of frame;
* Pre-war thumb latch.

I will be getting information about its ship date in due course.

Pictures? I haven't taken any yet, but there some nice photos with the listing I'll share here:

pix418824372.jpg


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pix701393560.jpg


pix843234441.jpg



Those little 2" buggers will make your heart skip a beat!

This revolver numbers a bit later than the one mentioned by the OP. It would be interesting for the OP to detail features on his revolver for comparison to these other "S" prefix revolvers.

Now I know why Smith & Wesson had to make so many M&P revolvers. A man can't be satisfied with just one or two.:o
 
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Texas Star said:
. . . The question was asked if S&W had frames from Victory Model production that would be numbered as civilian guns and finished as such. I would be amazed if that was not the case. They probably had quite a number of frames that were originally destined for .38-200 and US Victory Models, and I feel sure they were what was used for postwar production. No reason to think that some frames had not been numbered prior to use in commercial production . . .
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Very true. In fact, the S-prefix M&Ps shipped in March 1946 that I have owned or seen had plugged lanyard swivel holes. My highest s/n is S816854. Commercial production started around S8105XX . . . suggesting there could be roughly 5,000 plugged-hole S-prefix frames out there . . . maybe more.

Russ
 
CptCurl said:
. . . Incidentally, just yesterday I took ownership of another transitional M&P bearing S/N S936150. This is a breath-taking gun and appears unfired. It is a 2" snubby . . . I will be getting information about its ship date in due course . . .
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Outstanding example of a fine transition M&P . . . congratulations!

Until you're able to get a better information from a more authoritative source, I'll suggest a September 1947 ship date.

Russ
 
Press-1, don't hesitate to post a photo of your postwar M&P. A lot of us here love those revolvers.

Curl, you have two fantastic specimens.Two-inch K-frames with long-throw hammers have to be some of the best-looking compact handguns ever made. I have S868055 (early '47), and I don't shoot it anywhere near as much as I should.

I side with those who avoid the word "transitional" for the postwar long-action M&Ps. The only thing that distinguishes them from the prewar 1905/fourths is the improved hammer safety block that grew out of a military demand. It was an evolutionary wartime design change and doesn't constitute a change that warrants a "transitional" label. The postwar N-frame target revolvers do deserve the transitional label, because they had new micro sights and ribbed barrels mated to the old prewar actions. Guns like that are true 'tweeners.

And yes, the only guns that should be designated as Pre-10 models are the short-action guns that started appearing in the spring of 1948. They have serial numbers above S989000 or thereabouts; all non-model-marked M&Ps in the C-prefix series can be called Pre-10s, and the last roughly 11000-12000 guns in the S prefix K-frames can be considered pre-10s as well. All other M&Ps are neither transitional nor Pre-10s. (Or so say I, knowing full well that others are comfortable stating contrary positions. :D )
 
I'm no expert, but to my pedestrian eye it seems plain that the frame of S813907 is a pre-WW2 frame. Well, wait a minute. I don't mean "pre-WW2" because surely it was made during wartime production. The bevel around the hammer axle pin says this much, and the plugged lanyard hole emphasizes the fact.

On the other hand, S936150 would seem to be a new-manufactured, post-WW2 frame. No bevel around the hammer axle pin, etc.

Correct me if I am wrong.
 
I side with those who avoid the word "transitional" for the postwar long-action M&Ps. The only thing that distinguishes them from the prewar 1905/fourths is the improved hammer safety block that grew out of a military demand. It was an evolutionary wartime design change and doesn't constitute a change that warrants a "transitional" label. The postwar N-frame target revolvers do deserve the transitional label, because they had new micro sights and ribbed barrels mated to the old prewar actions. Guns like that are true 'tweeners.

And yes, the only guns that should be designated as Pre-10 models are the short-action guns that started appearing in the spring of 1948. They have serial numbers above S989000 or thereabouts; all non-model-marked M&Ps in the C-prefix series can be called Pre-10s, and the last roughly 11000-12000 guns in the S prefix K-frames can be considered pre-10s as well. All other M&Ps are neither transitional nor Pre-10s. (Or so say I, knowing full well that others are comfortable stating contrary positions. )
Click to expand...

Thanks much for the lesson in S&W history. I continue to learn details of these wonderful pieces of Americana. This board is a great source of information, and I appreciate everyone's comments. I just hope to have something of value to contribute to the discussion.
 
I agree with most of David's final paragraph.
However, I'm not so sure about his argument about using the "transitional" term as applied to early postwar .38 M&Ps. He's right that there is not a lot of difference between the prewar and postwar guns, except for the sliding hammer block that was added in September, 1944. However, that is a distinction. And I think of "transitional" in this context as a transition from the wartime guns to the "pre-model" production. I look for one or more of the following features to distinguish a "transitional" gun from a non-transitional example:
Patent dates on the barrel.
Extractor rod knob (doesn't apply to the 2" guns, of course).
Long throw hammer (this one is definitive - if it has the speed hammer, it is not "transitional" at all.
Style of stocks it shipped with (including the insert or medallion retainer).
Lanyard hole (this one can be iffy).
All of these items had changed by the time the C prefix was applied (and on very late S prefix guns)

So far I've cataloged more than two dozen of these, and a huge chunk of them shipped in the spring of 1946.

Jack
 
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Captain:
I think linde is right about September, 1947. I've cataloged one example that is only a few numbers off from yours that shipped in that month. Very likely yours did also. (BTW, it also has a 2" barrel.)
Jack
 
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