Is this a legal serial number?
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DWalt
Member
If all digits are legible, it's legal. At least from the picture, I can't tell if all digits are legible as I can't clearly make out the "4".
If you have the box that shows the s/n, that's helpful.
The ATF&E will allow you to make a letter application to establish a serial number for something worn like this. You have to prove to them, however that the "4" is actually there.
This can be done with nitric acid, or "nicodate" sold in coin shops. After application, the "4" will magically appear. I would take it to a gunsmith who knows what he's doing, and has done it before.
The ATF&E will allow you to make a letter application to establish a serial number for something worn like this. You have to prove to them, however that the "4" is actually there.
This can be done with nitric acid, or "nicodate" sold in coin shops. After application, the "4" will magically appear. I would take it to a gunsmith who knows what he's doing, and has done it before.
Slippery slope if that 4 isn't there. They might take it as being buffed off.
Mark
Mark
05CarbonDRZ
Member
Yeah,That serial number is gone.You better not bid on that Gun......
BobC357
Member
I don't think its good. There is nothing indicating the "4" was ever there and to wear down that far so close to the other numbers would wear the finish too (possible its been refinished).
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You probably have a good chance of obtaining permission to have it restamped if the barrel flat, rear cylinder face, etc. have the full SN present and visible.
A Triple Lock?
A Triple Lock?
05CarbonDRZ
Member
There is NO doubt the Gun has been refinished with a HEAVY Hand.
This gun is a Triple Lock Target .44 that is currently on Gunbroker. One picture may or may not tell the whole story. Taken from a different angle and lighting, the last digit might be visible. All the other serial number locations match. The seller originally misstated the serial as 07134 - he says there is a 0 in front of the serial stamped in the ejector rod shroud but I think it is in fact a B, for blued finish.
It has been refinished (as stated by the seller) an indeterminate time ago. The butt must have had some deep corrosion to have been ground that hard. However the rest of the gun looks very decent - I would not call it refinished with a heavy hand, but very well done. Even the work done on the butt, while deep, is straight and flat. My guess is that it was done long enough ago (pre-'68) that keeping the serial number boldly readable was not a priority.
If I hadn't just bought a Triple Lock Target .44 I would likely bid on it myself. Might anyway.
It has been refinished (as stated by the seller) an indeterminate time ago. The butt must have had some deep corrosion to have been ground that hard. However the rest of the gun looks very decent - I would not call it refinished with a heavy hand, but very well done. Even the work done on the butt, while deep, is straight and flat. My guess is that it was done long enough ago (pre-'68) that keeping the serial number boldly readable was not a priority.
If I hadn't just bought a Triple Lock Target .44 I would likely bid on it myself. Might anyway.
05CarbonDRZ
Member
All the barrel markings are washed out.If you think that constitutes a very good refinish,We have vastly different opinions.
Agreed. I see from looking at some of your posts that you are several notches above me as to what condition you collect. Where you see barrel markings that are washed out, I see barrel markings that are mostly still there. I see a clean line on the sideplate, not rolled over as often happens. Contours look maintained to me, flats are flat. As with all refinishes, it would be interesting to see "before" pictures to see what they had to work with. It's obviously not a factory level refinish but I've certainly seen worse.
On the plus side, it's unlikely that we'll be bidding against each other in the future.
But back to the original topic - if someone is seriously considering bidding they might ask the seller if they have a better picture of the butt. That last digit might show up in different light, at a different angle. Who knows, there might even be a restamp under the stocks (although I doubt it - again I think that this was probably done before anyone cared much about serial numbers).
And for all the concern there is about obliterated serial numbers and what the feds might think of it, this is about the most innocuous example I've ever seen. It is obviously not an attempt to actually remove the number. Does anyone have any actual knowledge of cases where the number has been partially obliterated, say by installation of a lanyard ring or this kind of refinishing, and what the BATF's reaction was? Or is everyone just assuming that you automatically go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200?
05CarbonDRZ
Member
Agreed. I see from looking at some of your posts that you are several notches above me as to what condition you collect. Where you see barrel markings that are washed out, I see barrel markings that are mostly still there. I see a clean line on the sideplate, not rolled over as often happens. Contours look maintained to me, flats are flat. As with all refinishes, it would be interesting to see "before" pictures to see what they had to work with. It's obviously not a factory level refinish but I've certainly seen worse.
On the plus side, it's unlikely that we'll be bidding against each other in the future.
But back to the original topic - if someone is seriously considering bidding they might ask the seller if they have a better picture of the butt. That last digit might show up in different light, at a different angle. Who knows, there might even be a restamp under the stocks (although I doubt it - again I think that this was probably done before anyone cared much about serial numbers).
And for all the concern there is about obliterated serial numbers and what the feds might think of it, this is about the most innocuous example I've ever seen. It is obviously not an attempt to actually remove the number. Does anyone have any actual knowledge of cases where the number has been partially obliterated, say by installation of a lanyard ring or this kind of refinishing, and what the BATF's reaction was? Or is everyone just assuming that you automatically go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200?
Very well put Sir,Thank You for being level headed and civil about it.Sometimes it is hard to get that Online.....
deadin
US Veteran
I think the "serial number thing" is more of an "add-on" penalty than a primary one. If someone is busted for some other reason you can count on "a gun with a removed serial number was found in their possession" being brought up.
(The news media eats this stuff up.)
I'd just as not have this chance hanging around me.
"Local man is caught with 50 or 60 guns, several military grade rifles and thousands of round of ammunition including a pistol with an obliterated serial number....."
(The news media eats this stuff up.)
I'd just as not have this chance hanging around me.
"Local man is caught with 50 or 60 guns, several military grade rifles and thousands of round of ammunition including a pistol with an obliterated serial number....."
Back in the late '70s, when I first obtained a gunsmithing FFL, there was a section in the BATF book that stated that if one had to remove a serial number for some reason, it was permissable to stamp the number on the frame BEFORE removing the old number. S&W did this when they drilled through a SN to install a lanyard loop.
That instruction is no longer in the BATF-E book.
That instruction is no longer in the BATF-E book.
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