Friend bought this earlier today at a pawn shop. I asked him why he bought a gun with no serial number and him, and the shop owner, thought the production number inside the crane was the serial number. I told him no that it wasn't. Doesn't look like there ever was one but the barrel, cylinder, and extractor star all match each other. I'm guessing based on that serial number, 362897, the gun was made around 1918. I took the grips off and saw someone's initials scratched into the frame, SL 1963. A factory stamped "98" was stamped on the left side. Not sure if the 98 means anything or not. Is this what's known as a lunch box gun? Maybe they thought it wouldn't be missed with WWI production going on? Just a thought. The grips were numbered in the 342,XXX serial number range. Someone buffed the hell out of this gun but must have been a long time ago as there was a thick amount of rust under the grips. Wonder what would happened if you tried to get a letter based on the rest of the gun's serial number.

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The serial number has been intentionally removed. The gun has been renickeled. It was illegal for the pawn shop to sell that gun and it is illegal to to own it. The BATF expects a serial number to be stamped on the butt of all revolvers and if one is missing, it is considered illegal to possess the gun. The stocks are from a much later era, but the revolver would have shipped from the factory around 1920-1921.

I would return it to the shop for a speedy refund, before it is too late.

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

The gun was buffed, not nickeled. There is no sign of any serial number ever being on the gun. I've seen plenty that were scrubbed and it's obvious but I may be wrong on this one. Also, Colt didn't put serial numbers on the butt of their revolvers all the time. Colt Commandos don't have them. I'm sure other makers didn't do it either but that's the only one I can think of off the top of my head. The Colt 1917's number was in the crane as well. Also being it's this old it doesn't have to have one but I told him to take it back anyway. He paid $300 for it.

You should be happy it is not your gun. I am talking about S&W revolvers here and all were stamped on the butt. Serial numbers are easily removed and metal is easy to polish. Still illegal to own.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Any gun made prior to 1968 doesn't have to have a serial number right, regardless if it was removed or not? So I think he's fine and it is legal to own. Have you ever heard of a "lunch box" gun? They're are many examples of S&Ws snuck out of the factory having no serial number which is why I was wondering if this was one of them. I've never seen any gun that had the serial number removed and it looked nice, was always obvious. If this is the case, then it's a first. I told him to letter it to see what the letter would say but I'd hate to see him tie up more money in a gun he paid too much for. I wouldn't have paid $100 for it and that's if it had a serial number. Maybe the grips are worth something.

Removing the serial number is illegal and possessing a gun with a removed serial number is illegal.Its pretty simple.

Ok, I'll let him know. So, what is the process in deciding whether or not the number was removed, or not stamped at all? There is an unusual brown patina where the serial number should be.

You are correct it wasn't required but once one was on a gun its still illegal to remove it or own one missing the serial number from the frame. Your friend might want to consider what a good attorney cost per hour to get him out of trouble. I would not chance it over a $150-200 gun just my two cents worth. Oh and no joke about a month ago I could have bought a functioning M2 carbine from a fellow locally that didn't know what he had was illegal to own without the proper paper work(it was his Grandfathers) .It came up on our local Facebook guntrading page listed as a M1 carbine when I got to talking to him he said oh yea it has the selector switch I could have bought it for a song. I would have loved to have it just not worth the risk.

I have never read about or handled a modern S&W revolver without a serial number that was sanctioned by the BATF. I believe this is a standard Military & Police revolver and it would not have had the serial number stamped on all parts without stamping the butt. If it were a lunch box special, there would be no serial numbers anywhere. Even if it were smuggled out of the factory, it would still not make it legal to own. There is a process to request a serial number be re-established on a firearm from local and federal agencies, but the owner runs the risk of confiscation or destruction of the firearm. They did this for one of Bonnie & Clydes guns, but I think that would be the exception and not the rule.

Here is an excerpt from the Federal Firearms Regulations:

(k) It shall be unlawful for any person
knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in
interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm
which has had the importer's or
manufacturer's serial number removed,
obliterated, or altered, or to possess or
receive any firearm which has had the
importer's or manufacturer's serial number
removed, obliterated, or altered and has,
at any time, been shipped or transported
in interstate or foreign commerce.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

So how do we determine it was removed or just wasn't stamped? If it was me, I wouldn't take a chance at it. As for the M2 carbine, it may have been an M1 with M2 parts in it. Take the parts out and you have your self a legal M1 and about $400-$500 worth of M2 parts. If it was marked M2, you could have had someone run the number. It may have been papered and had it been papered you could have had the grandson sign off on it. Buddy of mine who is Class III found an MP40 through the grape vine but didn't want to buy it unless it was registered. Well, luck of the draw, it was and he was able to hunt down the grandchildren who signed off on it. Now he's done the same thing where the grandkids knew what it was worth and he had to pay them a large fee to get them to sign off on it. In a couple of rare cases, he found the family members and they refused to sign anything regardless of what he offered them.

I thought the same thing, why have numbered parts but no number on the frame. Unless it was too hard to get un-numbered parts. That regulation doesn't say anything about lunch box guns though. Probably a iffy situation.

Ok I re-read it, says you have to bring it to them and let them make that decision. Does anyone else have any examples of lunchbox guns?

The serial number was stamped on the butt at One time,NO doubt about it.I would tell your Friend to take it back to the Pawn Shop with a Print out of the BATF Laws and demand a refund.

But how do you prove that? The few lunch box guns I've seen had no serial number but the owners never went into detail about the other serial numbered parts either.

Here's a lunchbox 1917 S&W. No serial number. All parts match each other.

S&W M1917 "Lunch Box" Special

OK,You win.You have a "Lunch Box" Gun.Just don't let the ATF see it.

every square inch of the revolver has been buffed and you still dont think thats enough reason for everyone to think the SN has been removed? what more proof do you need?

Its JUNK. tell your friend to get a refund.........

__________________
Kris
OGCA, NRA LM

I don't need any snide comments. If you don't plan on contributing to the post then stay out of it. I'm looking for an accurate answer. I don't care if the serial number has been scrubbed or not, not my gun, I don't care. What I am saying is it doesn't look like it and therefore could be a lunchbox gun. That being said, prove it was scrubbed, or prove that it was something removed from the factory. I'm wanting to know as much as possible in case I run into something like this in the future. You guys seem to have a lot of posts under your belt but none of you seem to have ever heard of the term "lunch box" gun? Wish someone with some experience and not just posts count would get on here and comment. Care to comment on the 1917 S&W post that I just mentioned? Got a PM from a Saxonpig stating he had NEVER seen one, well there you go. Looking right at it. I'm sure if I googled or even searched on here I could pull up some more.

Just because the bluing was removed doesn't justify why there is no serial number, try again. I see buffed guns at shows all the time and they still have their serial numbers.

05CarbonDRZ, you say "NO doubt about it." Explain. How do you know, 1000% positively, that this was scrubbed?

The only thing I see that sticks out is the brown stuff over the area where the serial number should be.

I'm not disagreeing that it was scrubbed or that it wasn't scrubbed. I want to know which of the two it is, and why. If you think it's scrubbed, tell me why and don't say" Well, it should be there" That's not going to cut it. If you think it's a lunch box gun or if it's not a lunch box gun, tell me why. So far only one person has done that by stating that the other parts wouldn't be numbered. Well, that's believable until the 1917 popped up.

I think the feds would make it the burden of the owner to prove that such a gun had never had a receiver serial number.

A friend worked in a pawn/gun shop. A customer brought in a S&W with no butt serial number. He went ahead and took it in pawn, then called the police and BATF. He showed them the remaining serial number locations, the police found it on a theft report, and the BATF allowed it to be renumbered and returned to its rightful owner.
But that was in the 1970s. Would the feds be as accommodating now?

If you want to prove whether or not this revolver once hada a serial number, I can only think of two ways.

BATF-E uses acid to raise old serial numbers. Too invasive for a fairly common gun.

Measure the height of the grip frame near the mainspring seat on several M&Ps and compare these numbers to your friend's M&P. If this height is less, the butt has been altered.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

In Mississippi, maybe, but I wouldn't chance it if it were me. That is an idea though. Run the barrel's serial number on the NCIC and see if it was stolen at one time or another. I'll tell him to do that.

I thought about the acid test but can it bring one back that "looks" this smooth? Measuring the height of the grip frame is an excellent idea too.
thank you.

Thanks for the clarification of M1/M2 operating systems, (original text pulled for ignorance) !

Your pal -MAY- have a "lunchbox" gun, but I seriously doubt it.... if you were sneaking gun parts out of a factory, why would you stamp the barrel, cylinder, ect and not the frame???

While I could see it be worth your time to ask BATFE to verify, and issue a new serial number if you found, say, a lunchbox Singer 45, or other "historically significant" firearm, a 100-400 dollar S&W really isnt worth your trouble.

I would run (not walk) away from this gun for $100, or even $10.... Sorry if you don't like hearing this, but these laws are not typically bent in the gun owners favor these days (look at Jersey trying to put an old man away for a flintlock pistol!). I wish your friend luck!

"And you have an illegally modified semi auto receiver, which is contraband, and you can be punished for if caught.... I guess if you got the rifle for $250 bucks, and melt the receiver, and tell no one, you got a great deal.... as for me, not worth the problems."

Without the M-2 parts, there is no violation. However, possession of all of the parts and the modifications DOES constitute having a machine gun, per the Feds, even if not assembled as such.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Merely my $0.02 worth: Lettering it would be the only definitive answer, but would only be a negative indication. The number, if it is the actual S/N for that frame, appears to fall outside the years in the S&WHF digitized records (ca 1930-41), so a factory letter would be the only accessible record. If it does letter to that number, then it would be a defaced weapon as others have cited. If it does not (an open number or other discrepancy) then it may be many things...but if the S&W records do not positively account for that S/N, then it's at best questionable in any sense.

__________________
50 Years of Wish You Were Here

M2 parts on a M1 carbine doesn't require any altering of the receiver. All M2 parts are perfectly legal so long as you don't have all the parts on the gun at the same time. Now if the receiver flat out says M2, then yes, you have a problem. An M1 and M2 receiver is the same exact thing except one had a 1 stamped on it and the other had a 2 stamped on it. You may have let a sleeper pass you by. What was the maker? I know there is a commercial version of the M1, Iver Johnson maybe? that has some weird switch on the left side of the gun. Not sure what it's for but it's there.

We were talking about the numbered parts earlier. It doesn't make sense but it may make sense if the parts were numbered elsewhere in the factory and the thief couldn't get them any other way. I'm not sure how they have or had things set up there. It's not my gun so I don't care what he does with it. I told him to return it before I even started this debate. I read the article about the flintlock this morning. That's the dumbest thing. I doubt he'll get in trouble but God what a run around and it's probably costing him too.

This is what's required to make a M1 carbine M2, that and a m2 slide. Found the photo on this website:

http://galleryhip.com/m2-carbine.html

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Exactly. I mentioned this to him when he brought it over but he seem uninterested in putting any more money into it. May be worth $50 to see whether or not it's illegal. Too bad you can't call Roy Jinks and just ask if there is a record of the gun without giving all the other juicy details.

I think some proof that it has been buffed down is the grips hang down past the bottom of the frame.
I would think that the burden of proof rides with the owner. How is the new or old owner going to prove that the frame never had a serial number? Without that proof the gun is illegal per BATFE. I don't think a $300 gun is worth the trouble. If it were mine I would return it and educate the pawnshop.

__________________
Tom
NRA Pistol Inst

Well ill be! I never knew that, thought there would have been machining somewhere, I have never had a carbine, and appreciate the info!

I agree about the numbers, I have no dog in the fight either, just hate to see the ban boys win, or an honest gun guy lose.... hope all works out for your buddy. (and the shop, for that matter)

Dad made the same argument regarding the grips until I showed him my Navy Victory, the grips are numbered to the gun and they hang down just a bit. In the case of my buddy's gun, they're not numbered to the gun and I don't even know if they are the correct grips or not. You're right, I would never have bought it to begin with.

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I don't have a dog in the hunt either. I just don't like it when someone says yes or no without telling me why they came to that conclusion. If it's your opinion, say it's your opinion but don't state it as a fact with no proof. Some people think that just because they say so then it must be true.

I certainly don't want to be snide or argumentative. That said, you asked for opinions and you got them. The overwhelming consensus is that the revolver had a serial number on the butt at one time. However, you seem to want to argue the point. That's fine but the legal remedy is to take it to the BATF.

"Without the M-2 parts, there is no violation. However, possession of all of the parts and the modifications DOES constitute having a machine gun, per the Feds, even if not assembled as such."

Not so. BATFE as a matter of policy takes the position "once an MG, always a MG" However, without the parts required to convert an M1 to full auto being present, they would have to research it to determine that the carbine left the factory as an M2. I doubt they would bother.

I really have to wonder why there was even any discussion as to whether the M&P is contraband, and why the arguments about its being a "lunch box gun" (or not) are in the least bit germane to the question of whether it is legal. It would be seen, even by Stevie Wonder, as being illegal.

The overwhelming consensus was it absolutely, without a doubt, 1000% positively, had a serial number on the butt... but that's all they said. Why did they think that. Only one person came up with a sensible idea and that was to measure the grip frame to see if it had been shortened. If that turns out ok, then the next sensible idea would be to run it on the NCICs check. If that comes back ok, then get a letter. That'll tell you without a doubt if it's trashed, or trashed even more.

I run into this same thing when it comes to WWII German stuff. I post stuff on another forum, not this one, and all I get is FAKE FAKE FAKE, but no reason as to why it's fake, who made it, when was it made, etc etc and then I get a dozen or so emails stating they'd like to purchase said fake. And no, no one has offered to buy this *** ha ha.

Because if it left the factory without a serial number before 1968, that would make it legal A lot of M1s converted to M2s in the field anyway. I remember asking a vet at the SOS show this question and he told me that they could buy M2 kits during WWII to put on their carbine. That's what he said, not me.

I'd hate to take that gun to the ATF as they wouldn't do the required research which is what I'm doing now. They'd do the acid test and when nothing happened they'd confiscate it and cut it in half.

"Because if it left the factory without a serial number before 1968, that would make it legal"

It sure would be interesting to convince a judge and jury of that. Have you heard of the concept of "Prima Facie" evidence? It means that "At First Sight" it would be deemed illegal. Then it's up to the defendant to prove otherwise.

Exactly! Which is why I would never buy one. I wouldn't recommend carrying this around until the proof was to be had.

I do have a few solutions to the question in hand so thanks to those who actually tried.

Let us know if any of them work to legitimize it.
There are a lot of Grandpa's Army Guns out there with scrubbed serial numbers in the hands of heirs of no criminal intent.

I tell folks to part them out when I see them. Saw a nice 1903 Springfield and a 1911A1 scrubbed at the gun show last weekend. Sucks bad too.

I have a thought for you. I am a collector of WWII small arms. I have a good bit of knowledge on 1911A1's and plenty of literature on them including the Clawson book. I cant ever remember seeing a "lunchbox" Colt but i have seen several Remington Rand examples. And maybe one Ithaca. I say this because it wasnt common for anyone working in a gun factory to take guns home. Especially guns with parts that had other guns serial numbers on them. As would be the case with this one. Im sure it happened but lets think about it, they seen guns and parts all the time. Im sure there were legal ways to own them at discounted prices. Im sure there were strict policies in the gun factories. Now, take a typewriter company, turn it into a gun factory, and make it push out a record number of 1911A1's and you have something there. Those folks were not used to building guns and the temptation and ease of making "lunchbox" guns was easier. The production aspects, processes, and mind set was totally different than making typewriters. Id just think since most "lunchbox" 1911's are Remington Rands speaks a lot when it comes to that issue. Im just saying that any gun manufacture then and now had strict policies and I find it hard to believe that this gun would be such and have matching numbers except for the frame. Most "lunchbox" Guns came from factory second parts with no proofs or serial numbers as they were not firearm worthy. Had there been a push to make these guns and another factory stepped in to help and this gun was made during that time then yes it could be a "lunchbox" gun. Given the history of the gun manufacturing process id say "your" gun has been altered. I hope my thoughts make sense and i hope you figure out an answer. Im sure you have seen enough of these guns in the used market to know they arent worth the risk. I think this is a good subject to argue over and we all need to understand that there are a lot of people that dont know the laws regarding serial numbers and they need to know. Todays gun world is not like it used to be and "they" are waiting for any reason to make examples of people. Good luck! And youre asking the right folks here.

Anything that is valuable is subject to being counterfeited. You shouldn't and probably won't get on-line answers as to how to identify a fake anything. Educating you, in cyberspace, about how to spot a fake also teaches the criminals how to improve their fakes.

Sometime last summer, at the local gun show I ran across a nearly pristine Colt M1917 with the butt SN crudely ground off (priced quite high). I informed the vendor about its legal status, and he essentially called me a stupid liar, and that it was perfectly OK. But on my second pass, I noticed it was no longer on his table.

I agree with you, I see more "lunchbox" guns on military stuff than anything. I've seen a number of Remington made M91 Mosin Nagants with no serial numbers, especially 1918 when they lost the contract, a lot of them were snuck out. I haven't had the opportunity to see any 1911a1s yet. Any photos?

That gun was ok. The Colt 1917s and the WWII Colt Commando had the factory serial number inside the crane. On the Colt 1917, the serial number you see on the bottom, was a military serial number added later. After WWI, the US gov't released the Colt 1917s to the civilian market but ground the military serial number off the bottom. The only time you'll see a Colt 1917 with it's military serial number still on the bottom will be A. In it's original blued form because it was stolen, or B. a parkerized refurbished version done for WWII. After WWII, they didn't scrub the serial number off the bottom when they released all the parkerized guns.

I can understand that but a simple PM would suffice. I've seen fakes in books before by so called "experts"

A few of your comments.

Never seen any gun that had the serial number removed and it looked nice, was always obvious. If this is the case, then it's a first.

If you don't plan on contributing to the post then stay out of it. I'm looking for an accurate answer. I don't care if the serial number has been scrubbed or not, not my gun, I don't care.

You guys seem to have a lot of posts under your belt but none of you seem to have ever heard of the term "lunch box" gun? Wish someone with some experience and not just posts count would get on here and comment.

Just because the bluing was removed doesn't justify why there is no serial number, try again. I see buffed guns at shows all the time and they still have their serial numbers.

It's not my gun so I don't care what he does with it. I told him to return it before I even started this debate.

I just don't like it when someone says yes or no without telling me why they came to that conclusion. If it's your opinion, say it's your opinion but don't state it as a fact with no proof. Some people think that just because they say so then it must be true.

The overwhelming consensus was it absolutely, without a doubt, 1000% positively, had a serial number on the butt... but that's all they said. Why did they think that. Only one person came up with a sensible idea and that was to measure the grip frame to see if it had been shortened.

I do have a few solutions to the question in hand so thanks to those who actually tried.

Had you actually read the entire conversation you would know number 1. not my gun. Number 2. I don't care what the outcome is as it's not my gun and 3 None of my comments were ever considered to be snide.

Do you even know the meaning of snide??

Bottom line is it does not matter whether the gun was stolen from the factory before a serial number was applied, stolen from somebody’s home and the sn was removed, or some owner just did not like the number on the butt and removed it. In any case, the BATF will treat it the same. There will never be any proof that the gun was a stolen from the factory and even if there was, it is still illegal to own. None of us own the gun and do not care what the owner does with it. It was you that asked the question and everyone here were only attempting to help you out . . . a mistake I will not repeat.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Yes as a matter of fact I do, thank you. Thank you for those horrible examples by the way. Seems like a letter would be the only way to prove whether or not this left with a serial number and would be the only proof the ATF would probably pay attention too. That being said, it'll never happen so to cure my curiosity I'll get him to measure the grip frame. If the gun left the factory before 1968 with no serial number then YES it is legal to own. If it was illegal that would mean thousands upon thousands of weapons made before 1968 with no serial number would have to be destroyed for lacking one. Not everyone was here to help, they were here to run their mouth which probably explains the high post count they have. I'll say it again, if you're going to contribute, then do so, but don't state something as a fact when there are other possibilities out there. The third post I made said "So, what is the process in deciding whether or not the number was removed, or not stamped at all?" and not one person could answer that. We have some theories, but not facts. I hope you don't help me in the future if this is what you're going to do. The only thing you contributed was posting ATF laws and thank you for that.