Half Target M&P, Update: Another Police Gun!

Modified · Jul 25, 2015

So I'm thinking the sight work at least was done at the factory. When I bought it I had no idea the front sight was a gold bead or that there was a checkered backstrap. I think the stocks are wrong because I can't find a number on the back and they don't quite fit at the bottom. I've been traveling though and haven't really slept much in the last couple days so its probably something obvious I am missing.

Opinions on the backstrap?

Might this be a prime candidate for a search through the SWHF records?

I'm very pleased with this thing, I had no idea the front sight was a gold bead or that the backstrap was checkered. I think maybe the action has been tuned up a bit too at some point, but I won't take the side plate off without some sleep.

Update:
Letter and a fat packet from the SWHF arrived. If you aren't a member, RUN don't walk to join up. They are doing God's work!

410bore · Jul 25, 2015

LOVE it.

I'd think the work was done at the factory at a later date. Better letter it.

dacoontz · Jul 25, 2015

410bore said:
LOVE it.

I'd think the work was done at the factory at a later date. Better letter it.

I'd have to agree.

Muley Gil · Jul 25, 2015

Others with more knowledge will be along soon, but I do know that it went back to the factory in June 1927.

JP@AK · Jul 25, 2015

I'd almost bet money that in June, 1927, this one went back to the factory service department to have the front sight changed.
That may have also been the time the checking was done on the back strap.
So, yes, letter it. But you will probably have to do more than that. The factory shipping records will not record this change, if what I postulate is true. That would call for getting the other records from the S&W Historical Foundation. Given the repair date, the records should be among those that are now available.
Good luck. This is a very interesting revolver!

DCWilson · Jul 26, 2015

Special gun. I agree that you should letter it.

The stocks are from before WWI. The gun was manufactured between 1922 (address line present) and 1927 (return to factory). From the serial number I'd guess it shipped in 1923.

It probably got the backstrap treatment and half target front sight on its factory return, but I'm not sure the front sight there now would have been installed in 1927. The earliest Call gold beads I know about are on guns that shipped in 1930. I acknowledge that Call was around for a long time and could have put beads in Patridge blades as early as 1923, when they first appeared on S&W target revolvers, but I've just never seen a beaded Patridge blade that I know was installed before 1930. Also the front sight retaining pin looks overlong -- that seems a little casual for factory work. I think it possible that some other variety of target front sight was installed in 1927 and the current blade was a later replacement -- 1930s, maybe, when Call beads were standard on the K-22 Outdoorsman and not infrequently seen as special order sights on any revolver.

Are there any other specially grooved or cross-hatched areas on the revolver? There is something a little Coltish to my eyes about that backstrap treatment; I have seen cross-hatched triggers go with that design on early Officers Model revolvers. I don't recall at the moment if the forestrap was treated similarly.

I love half-target revolvers, and this is a good one. Envy!

Modified · Jul 26, 2015

The trigger is grooved, but I don't see anything else on it that is cross-hatched.

Edit: sorry, i should not have replied before getting a little sleep at least.

Thanks for the responses guys, I'll get this puppy lettered and run it through the SWHF as soon as I can. I love the gun, but in all honesty the only reason I bought it was for the chance to come up with some SWHF information on it. I've been trying *not* to buy guns, and I told a bunch of people to buy this one, but when no one did I talked to the seller directly and came to a price I couldn't refuse on it.

In any case, I'll keep you posted in some months when I get a chance at paperwork.

830singleshot · Jul 27, 2015

I'm interested to know if the fixed rear sight has been altered in any way to accommodate the wider front sight. If so, I would sure like to see a picture of it.
Verrrry cooool!

Modified · Jul 31, 2015

Snapped a couple shots. One of the rear sight and one of the trigger. No more checkering I can find anywhere, but it does look like the rear sight was modified.

SDH · Jul 31, 2015

Very cool revolver.
I presume you know that the backstrap checkering was done with a chisel and hammer rather than a checkering file or machine. It is easy to spot because it is not perfect, uniform or even particularly constant. I'm a big fan of handwork and this was very well done with the most basic hand tools by a true craftsman.
Congrats on your acquisition!

mikepriwer · Jul 31, 2015

Caleb

As to the earliest appearance of the Call Gold Bead front sight, the 25th anniversary
presentation gun, made in 1907, has a Call Gold Bead front sight. The letter does not
discuss the front sight, but the gun certainly has one. This is, after all, 25 years
after Call started working for the factory.

I tend to agree with the others vis-a-vis the target front sight blade and the checkered
backstrap; it probably happened when the gun went back to the factory. If they
kept the height of the front sight blade the same, then they would only have had to
widen the rear sight notch, to accommodate the wider front sight blade.

I do have a half-target that letters, from about 1907. The front sight blade
was too high for the rear sight notch, so they factory made up an insert for the
rear sight, to raise it up.

Regards, Mike

Pondoro · Jul 31, 2015

What is the purpose of the half target? Some competition that prohibited adjustable sights? Or guy buys a fixed site gun, cannot hit with it, and wants a different height front sight?

Modified · Jul 31, 2015

Pondoro said:
What is the purpose of the half target? Some competition that prohibited adjustable sights? Or guy buys a fixed site gun, cannot hit with it, and wants a different height front sight?

I can say in the case of this gun with that gold bead the front sight shows up way better then a standard blade. I'm not sure it's anything more complicated than sight visibility.

mikepriwer · Jul 31, 2015

Caleb

Your reasoning is right, but I think there is another point, and that is that some
competitions were restricted to fixed sights, in particular rear sights. The best way
to improve the sight picture for such competitions was to get a target front sight blade.

Some of those guns that you own, and displayed in Spokane, have a rear sight blade
that was fixed into the frame. I don't remember the configuration of their front sights,
but that would also be something to improve the sight picture.

Here is a picture of the half-target that letters as is. Look carefully at the area of
the rear sight notch - you will see something higher than the backstrap at that point.
Someday I'll get a top-view picture of the insert.

mikepriwer-albums-mlp13-smoothbores-picture13650-78222.jpg

Regards, Mike

jmace57 · Jul 31, 2015

I have this half target I am awaiting the factory letter on. It is a pre-war Heavy Duty

mikepriwer · Aug 2, 2015

Caleb

Here is a top-view picture of the insert that was made up for the rear sight channel.
The front sight blade is a Lyman Ivory-bead blade, so the "proper" rear sight should
be a small semi-circle. This factory insert provides that sight window, and at the
proper height - presumably !

mikepriwer-albums-mlp13-smoothbores-picture13653-78333-insert.jpg

Regards, Mike

jsfricks · Aug 2, 2015

SixgunStrumpet said:
I've been trying *not* to buy guns, and I told a bunch of people to buy this one, but when no one did I talked to the seller directly and came to a price I couldn't refuse on it.

I don't remember getting this PM, because if I did it would be in my possession.

That's a nice one!

Modified · Aug 2, 2015

mikepriwer said:
Caleb

Here is a top-view picture of the insert that was made up for the rear sight channel.
The front sight blade is a Lyman Ivory-bead blade, so the "proper" rear sight should
be a small semi-circle. This factory insert provides that sight window, and at the
proper height - presumably !

Regards, Mike

Good heavens that's awesome.

I feel like I'm following your trail from way back on so much of this. I'm picking up scraps of this and that I find fascinating and then you pull out something that just puts anything I come up with to shame. I love it, never stop.

JohnK · Aug 3, 2015

Tasteful.

Exquisite.

Wish it were mine, and you had a better one.

Green Frog · Aug 3, 2015

To answer the question about why build a "half target" version... didn't they fit into some sort of restriction at Wimbledon or some other UK target venue? Seems like I heard that they wouldn't allow fully adjustable sights, but allowed sort of "enhanced" fixed sights. That would make sense if indeed there were a specific use for them. Otherwise, just being able to see the sights well would be an advantage; my old eyes have a terrible time picking up the skinny front blades on guns of that vintage.

Froggie

Half Target M&P, Update: Another Police Gun!

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