What the heck did I just buy?

millerj7 · #1 10-06-2015, 03:19 PM

Was looking for a Model 18-type revolver for use as a trail gun and ran across a "pre-model 18" as listed online. Bid held up and I took delivery yesterday of this revolver. It is a .22LR with 4" barrel, K frame, adjustable sights...pretty much what I was looking for. Upon closer examination in hand, many features seem "odd." I figured it was reblued, sights and grips changed, etc., but would suit my purposes. Looking closer, it has been refinished at the factory, but seems to be a K22 Outdoorsman with a 4" barrel (no such critter in my books) and a s/n of 6391xx indicating c. 1932 mfg, I think. Just wondering what the experts here think and if it would be worth getting my first letter on.
Will add more pics in another post.
Thanks,
Jim

bruner1981 · #2 10-06-2015, 03:23 PM

Yours is a K22 Combat Masterpiece, since it has the 4" barrel. Red ramp front sight is aftermarket and the grips are from a later time, but I nice looking gun overall. Congrats!

millerj7 · #3 10-06-2015, 03:25 PM

More clues?

TNDave · #4 10-06-2015, 03:27 PM

I'm no expert but it looks like it was a 6" gun cut to 4". Then someone soldered the new front sight on. That would make a reblue necessary.

arjay · #5 10-06-2015, 03:29 PM

I wonder if the factory did the work,it looks pretty good.

bruner1981 · #6 10-06-2015, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNDave

I'm no expert but it looks like it was a 6" gun cut to 4". Then someone soldered the new front sight on. That would make a reblue necessary.

That's a good point but I'm not too sure that's the case. The base of the front sight looks original to me and all of the rollmarks in the barrel look to be well centered to me. Now that I've looked a little closer, I'd venture a guess that the front sight was originally a half moon style, cut at an angle to make the ramp, then cut to accept the red insert. That's possibly one of the best sight alterations I've seen, I wouldn't be against it on a rougher gun.

Edit: I take that back, the base still looks original, but the ramp looks like it's from a later gun. Still, it looks like quality work.

Modified · #7 10-06-2015, 03:38 PM

I think you have a pre-war K22 Outdoorsman cut down in 1976 to 4" with a ramp installed and a reblue.

Kind of cool in a certain way. I like it.

millerj7 · #8 10-06-2015, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arjay

I wonder if the factory did the work,it looks pretty good.

I was thinking/wondering that, too. There is a small "12 76" stamp next to the "B Ri" stamping on the grip frame. That was about the heyday of the red ramp craze. Don't think the barrel has been cut, as the roll marks (both sides and top) seem centered and the ramp appears to be integral to the barrel.
Jim

arjay · #9 10-06-2015, 03:42 PM

Need to google some pics of 22 outdoorsmen and see where that roll mark is on a standard barrel

Modified · #10 10-06-2015, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arjay

Need to google some pics of 22 outdoorsmen and see where that roll mark is on a standard barrel

Took a shot of my new K22, can use it for reference:

Edit;

Looking at the pictures again it looks like the text on mine is centered right above the lug, that may be a replacement barrel. Also I think your trigger was replaced, the Outdoorsman didn't have a wide target hammer as an option I don't think.

millerj7 · #11 10-06-2015, 03:54 PM

Appreciate all the replies. I still kinda like it and probably paid the going rate for a Model 18. May still spend the extra $50 to get a letter to either put the questions to rest or raise more!
Jim

Modified · #12 10-06-2015, 03:57 PM

It's a fun gun, more interesting then a standard 18 to be certain. I think you did fine.

millerj7 · #13 10-06-2015, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SixgunStrumpet

Took a shot of my new K22, can use it for reference:

Edit;

Looking at the pictures again it looks like the text on mine is centered right above the lug, that may be a replacement barrel. Also I think your trigger was replaced, the Outdoorsman didn't have a wide target hammer as an option I don't think.

That is one lovely revolver! And case for it, too! Yes, I forgot to mention the smooth wide combat/target trigger. Am wondering if all this work was done at the factory in 1976?

mikepriwer · #14 10-06-2015, 04:46 PM

From the 1931 & 1936 catalogs, K22's were offered only with 6" barrels. I believe
there were no 4" K-22's in that period. There is a <B> stamp on the underside of
your barrel, which probably was placed there when the barrel was cut. The larger
B may be for the rebluing following it being cut.

Mike Priwer

DWalt · #15 10-06-2015, 04:55 PM

6391xx would date it in the 1931 period for manufacture, but it would likely have originally shipped later than that, possibly as late as 1934-35. That would it make it likely to be a very early K-22 Outdoorsman target revolver. I'd say the original barrel has been shortened at the factory (does the barrel SN match the one on the butt?) and that front sight was also installed. And the grips are clearly not period-correct. I guess you could say it is essentially a K-22 Combat Masterpiece but without the barrel rib.

Letters are not available at present but will probably resume sometime next year. The letter (and you probably should get one) will tell you only how the original revolver left the factory in the 1930s, but nothing about any subsequent mods performed at the factory.

beagleye · #16 10-06-2015, 05:40 PM

If that barrel was cut- how did they get that front sight base on there, it looks like one metal with the barrel??!! Pretty interesting as far as I am concerned.

DWalt · #17 10-06-2015, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beagleye

If that barrel was cut- how did they get that front sight base on there, it looks like one metal with the barrel??!! Pretty interesting as far as I am concerned.

I'd guess by silver soldering. A good job has a joint which is essentially undetectable.

shotgun693 · #18 10-06-2015, 06:18 PM

Get a letter, why not? If it wasn't factory then you still have a nice gun. Use to be there were many shops customizing revolvers. Some equaled or exceeded factory quality.

paplinker · #19 10-06-2015, 06:19 PM

I like it and was going to bid myself on that one just because it looks done well. Went away the day of auction end so i did not bid on it.

I find the smooth trigger is my favorite. I think it would look even better with a older style front sight like a King.

millerj7 · #20 10-06-2015, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWalt

6391xx would date it in the 1931 period for manufacture, but it would likely have originally shipped later than that, possibly as late as 1934-35. That would it make it likely to be a very early K-22 Outdoorsman target revolver. I'd say the original barrel has been shortened at the factory (does the barrel SN match the one on the butt?) and that front sight was also installed. And the grips are clearly not period-correct. I guess you could say it is essentially a K-22 Combat Masterpiece but without the barrel rib.

Letters are not available at present but will probably resume sometime next year. The letter (and you probably should get one) will tell you only how the original revolver left the factory in the 1930s, but nothing about any subsequent mods performed at the factory.

Thank you all again...I will get a letter next year, but use it as intended until then. Pretty sure it is not some rare variation and just, at best, a factory modification to a previous owner's whims. I kind of like it and am pretty sure there won't be anyone in camp with the same thing. Got an old 1930's Heiser 4" flap holster to carry it in, so maybe some small game will be on the evening menu!
Jim

millerj7 · #21 10-06-2015, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWalt

6391xx would date it in the 1931 period for manufacture, but it would likely have originally shipped later than that, possibly as late as 1934-35. That would it make it likely to be a very early K-22 Outdoorsman target revolver. I'd say the original barrel has been shortened at the factory (does the barrel SN match the one on the butt?) and that front sight was also installed. And the grips are clearly not period-correct. I guess you could say it is essentially a K-22 Combat Masterpiece but without the barrel rib.

Letters are not available at present but will probably resume sometime next year. The letter (and you probably should get one) will tell you only how the original revolver left the factory in the 1930s, but nothing about any subsequent mods performed at the factory.

DWalt, Thank you for chiming in. S/N on butt and extractor/ejector all match each other. The grips feel good to me (I had a set of diamond magnas to install, but thinking I will leave the smooth magnas on it, as they fit and feel so well.)
Jim

murphydog · #22 10-06-2015, 08:36 PM

Another possibility is that the factory numbered a leftover model 45 (.22 M & P) barrel to the gun and did the front sight modification. The font on the barrel rollmarks look later than that of the 1930s.

Skeetr57 · #23 10-06-2015, 08:41 PM

My opinion is that it was originally a .22 Outdoorsman that went back to the factory and was fitted with a M45 barrel with a modified sight blade, and reblued with the high polish blue.The barrel being numbered to the gun, the diamond stamp and the big B stamp all indicate factory service department work I believe. I think that the M45 and earlier pre model K frame fixed sight .22's were available with a 4" barrel, and it was normal to make up target barrels from fixed sight barrels before the war by milling the base for a pinned in blade. Just about any style of front sight blade could be fitted at the customers direction.

gmborkovic · #24 10-06-2015, 08:44 PM

I have read this Thread twice and studied the pics, boy that is a neat little gun. If that sight was silver soldered, I sure dont see the line.
Maybe an employee Fri. afternoon project?

moosedog · #25 10-06-2015, 08:51 PM

The wide "target trigger" is a later addition also. Over all it is a nice looking well done revolver.

beagleye · #26 10-06-2015, 09:39 PM

That is the closest thing I have seen to a pre war version of an 18, I know the mods where done in the 70s, but I am just saying it looks like a pre war 18.

Muley Gil · #27 10-07-2015, 06:36 AM

After studying the pictures and reading the other posts, I'll go with a pre WW II K22 Outdoorsman fitted with a factory 4" M45 barrel. In picture # 2 of the original post, you can see the pin holding the red ramp front sight into the base. It has also been fitted with a smooth Ranger trigger and smooth Magnas. I would surmise all of this work, along with the reblue, was done during the trip back to the factory in 1976, per the markings on the gripframe.

DWalt · #28 10-07-2015, 10:55 AM

I guess it could be a M45 barrel, but there are two things to consider. First, I believe all of the M45 barrels came with a ramped blade front sight. Second, the barrel is clearance-cut for the old barrel style extractor rod knob. Not that those mods couldn't have been done at the factory, but why wouldn't S&W have just shortened and used the original barrel, unless it was somehow damaged? One might compare the barrel markings on this K-22 to those on another known early K-22 and also to those on the M45.

Skeetr57 · #29 10-07-2015, 08:42 PM

Even S&W can't "just shorten the barrel". The fixed front sight and its base are forged as part of the barrel, so a new base would have to be fabricated and attached. In spite of what some here seem to believe, you can't silver solder a sight on without a definite solder line showing. Milling a slot in the front sight base for a new blade and milling the clearance for the ejector rod are simple and quick, and take less labor than cutting the barrel and resetting the front sight. Labor was pretty cheap in the 1970's, as the cost of a reblue or replate was only about $18 and either one required the gun to be disassembled and repolished before refinishing,then reassembled and test fired.

millerj7 · #30 10-07-2015, 09:58 PM

I didn't/couldn't show it in the pics (inexpensive camera) but on top of the barrel is all the patent gibberish, which runs from 3/16" ahead of the barrel ring (?) to 1/8" from the rear of the sight ramp or boss. Seems well centered on the barrel. Bore and chambers look pristine, a replacement seems plausible.
Jim

DWalt · #31 10-07-2015, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by millerj7

I didn't/couldn't show it in the pics (inexpensive camera) but on top of the barrel is all the patent gibberish, which runs from 3/16" ahead of the barrel ring (?) to 1/8" from the rear of the sight ramp or boss. Seems well centered on the barrel. Bore and chambers look pristine, a replacement seems plausible.
Jim

All of the barrel patent stampings went away by mid-1948. So if it has them, it is likely to be an original barrel. And the front sight was added by someone, if not S&W.

beagleye · #32 10-08-2015, 03:19 PM

Seems to me the barrel is the real enigma. Another thing that catches my eye is the serial number font under the barrel, that's not pre-war font, is it?

Jim- does the front sight base really seem like the same casting as the barrel? I am really curious about that barrel. It seems like a seventies replacement, but did they really have a 4" pre 1948 barrel in 22 cal laying around?

Cool gun!

millerj7 · #33 10-28-2015, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beagleye

Seems to me the barrel is the real enigma. Another thing that catches my eye is the serial number font under the barrel, that's not pre-war font, is it?

Jim- does the front sight base really seem like the same casting as the barrel? I am really curious about that barrel. It seems like a seventies replacement, but did they really have a 4" pre 1948 barrel in 22 cal laying around?

Cool gun!

beagleye,
Sorry to have been tardy in responding...things got busy around here. I cannot find any joint line between barrel and sight base, even under 5x magnification. It does seem odd that there would be a 40 year old barrel laying around. As an aside, 2 grouse fell victim to that 4" barrel and were enjoyed at camp that night.
Jim

wheelgun610 · #34 10-28-2015, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by millerj7

beagleye,
Sorry to have been tardy in responding...things got busy around here. I cannot find any joint line between barrel and sight base, even under 5x magnification....

Okay, with that same 5X magnifier, take a good look at the crown and see if you see any trace of a sleeve in the barrel. They're not always easy to detect when done well.... Sometimes it just looks like a ring on the muzzle.

Mark

millerj7 · #35 10-30-2015, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelgun610

Okay, with that same 5X magnifier, take a good look at the crown and see if you see any trace of a sleeve in the barrel. They're not always easy to detect when done well.... Sometimes it just looks like a ring on the muzzle.

Mark

No sign I can see of a sleeve/liner at either end of the barrel, Mark.
Jim