I have a .455 hand ejector mk2 S/N in the ~65K range that is all numbers matching and in fairly decent condition, pictured here: https://i.imgur.com/InpGtGt.png

I purchased this revolver for its collector value as all original and under the impression that it was unmodified and not rechambered, which i "confirmed" by specifically explaining the signs of being rechambered as well as sending example photos of rechambered cylinders and asking the seller if it appeared to be. He informed me that it did not and then I proceeded to purchase the firearm $425CDN/$315USD. I informed the seller after receiving the firearm that it had indeed been reamed to shoot 45 long colt, according to the blue book of gun values/standard catalog of smith and wesson/gun digest book of modern gun values such modifications mean the firearm loses any collector value and 20-40% in value.

Now my questions are: Considering that I purchased it as a collector item, should I seek any sort of partial refund or course of action from the seller? Are the prices outlined in the aforementioned firearm guides anywhere near accurate? If so did I pay too much or too little for this firearm considering its state?

My main concern, regardless of its value and or what I paid, is that I purchased it under the pretense that it was an unmodified and collectible revolver. Whereas if I had known it was modified I would not have purchased it in the first place, no matter the price.

Welcome to the forum.

That's a real beauty of 455 HE 2nd Model with Canadian markings.

The price was good regardless of the modifications. But still, it was mis-represented and should be returnable. Or the price adjusted.

Is the s/n still on the cylinder rear face? If so at least it was modified in the best possible way with chambers lengthened and recessed for 45 Colt case rims, which it appears to be based on the tight headspace between cyl and breechface. Therefore it still maintains the ability to safely shoot 455 MK II ammo as well.

It's in such good condition that I'd favor a price adjustment or even keep it w/o adj for the price you paid.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Welcome to the Forum.

Though you purchased this revolver as a collectible, you paid 1/3-1/2 of the value of a collectible. I paid that much ($300) for a similar .455 converted to .45 Colt back in 1978!

But if you are not satisfied, try to get your money back. Personally, I'd keep it and shoot it!

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Looking at the pictures, I would say that $315USD is dirt cheap. You got a great price. People here in the US would knock each other over scrambling to buy it for that price. I take it the transaction took place in Canada. I don't know the market there but would guess it is still a great deal.

I would not be too hard on the seller. Maybe he really could not tell it has been modified. Not everyone is a gun guy. If you really do not want it at all, see if he will take it back. He may be very honest but not well informed about this revolver. At worst, you can easily sell it to someone else, with full disclosure about the modification of course.

Really, it is now chambered for a much more readily available cartridge so to someone who wants to shoot it the mod is not all bad.

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You're shy a few manners.

Thank you for the response. Yes, it appears to have been reamed out and not shaved; the serial remains on the cylinder face. However, I cannot tell if it has been recessed or not.


You'd likely be able to tell much better than I can, so here is an image of the cylinder: http://i.imgur.com/2mZ5lOl.jpg

No. If there's no recess cut in the chamber mouths, it's not recessed.
But I don't see a serial number either unless it's on the left side cropped off the photo.
Have you chambered 45 Colt rounds in it? Is there evidence that the breehface has been shaved? That's another alternative to recessing the chambers or shaving the cyl face.

Which cartridge caliber is stamped on the barrel, can't quite see it well in photo? S&W did supply this model to Canada in 45 Colt and they are very scarce.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The cylinder doesn't appear to be countersunk. Perhaps the recoil shield has been shaved? Can you post a picture of it?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Serial number is there, just left it out of the photograph- 64,XXX. All markings on the revolver:

Top of barrel Smith & Wesson,Springfield Mass. U.S.A. Patented Oct.8.1901.Dec.17.1901.Feb.6.1906.
Underbarrel above ejector rod: serial number
Left side of barrel: Smith & Wesson .455.
Right side of frame: S&W logo
Left side of frame: Double arrow de-accession stamp
Butt of frame: serial one one side of the lanyard ring and the number 30 with some sort of 3-ring symbol on the other side
Back of ejector star and cylinder face: serial number
Yoke and frame adjacent: matching part numbers
Left grip panel: serial number penciled onto it


I have yet to purchase some 45 colt ammunition but I may purchase a box tomorrow if it is likely that will be compatible. The breach face does not show any signs of alteration as it retains bluing and the barrel-cylinder gap appears to be correct. I can provide more pictures if you would like. Thanks again to everyone for the responses.



Edit: I went ahead and took more pictures, uploading them now.

More images here:

http://i.imgur.com/GAZ3zBf.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/QqXEyGh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Lc7REQ5.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/dHFdXN7.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/jVlIC4L.jpg

Unless you have some other use for the .45 Colt ammunition, you should just see if you can borrow a single case. Even a fired one will do. Most gun shops will just give you something like that or sell it for pennies. If you could get six cases, so much the better.

Insert the case in one of the chambers and gently close the cylinder. If the cylinder closes, work the action to see if it cycles all the way around. If so, it is chambered for .45 Colt.

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You're shy a few manners.

Good photos, thx!

Well that sure looks like a righteous revolver. Now that I know you haven't even tried to chamber 45 Colt ammo, or didn't measure the depth of the chamber shoulder, you may have made an invalid assumption that it's been reamed for 45 Colt, and we're going in circles on an assumption.

Also recognize that S&W did not chamber their 455s just for 455 Mk II, they are all chambered for the LONGER 455 Mk I so the British commonwealth could use both cartridges.

Let us know when you actually have valid testing results with a cartridge or case. Keep your fingers crossed.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Sounds good, i'll see if i can get my hands on a 45 LC casing tomorrow. I'll be interested to see what a factory letter will say about where it was sent back then. I'm assuming it went to England but because it lacks any of the markings i usually see on English .455s I'm unsure of that; maybe it was English but not sold post war and instead a Canadian bring-back? Perhaps someone here might know more about this sort of thing.

Yours is likely from one of the shipments of 14,500 sold to the Canadian military, see below.

There are three basic categories of .455 Mk II chambered Hand Ejectors by S&W and all three categories include some triple locks, (Mk II refers to the cartridge, not the gun as labeled by S&W, however, the 2nd Model was stamped Mk II on the frame by the British.)

The 3 Versions of Hand Ejectors chambered in .455 Mk II for the British are:

1. “.44 HE 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’ with .455 Mk II chambering: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown, most or all likely .44 Spl, 666 for the British #1104 thru 10417 (obviously not inclusive of all serial #s), the extra 146 in serial range #9858-10007 for the commercial market; 123 in England and 23 in the US [N&J pgs. 204-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #’d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 15375. Shipped 1914-16.

* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it’s actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&WN&J pgs. 203, 204 & 205].

NOTE: Of the 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially, 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.

The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it’s unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.

2. “.455 Mk II HE 1st Model”, TL in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15; thus creating a possible ~ 68* duplicate serial #s of the 812 “.44 HE 1st Model TLs”, also in .455 chambering in 1. above.

*About Duplicate 44 HE series serial #s with Brit contract series S/Ns:

Duplicate numbers of the 666 .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (#1104-10417 in the 44 HE range - not all inclusive, are known and published) + 146 (#9858-10007 .44 HE range - not all inclusive, are published as well), can exist with 68 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (#1–5461 in the Brit contract # range), and with the .455 2nd Models (#5462 and up to #15375 - the last .44 HE 1st Model serial #) in the Brit range.

3. “.455 Mk II HE 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock, but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from the 44 and 455 HE 1st Model TLs) continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17. Feb 1916 724 manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203]. The Canadian military also bought 14,500* of these 2nd Models. And 1105 2nd Models released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&WN&J pg. 216].

“As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April] 1916, S&W found enough [44 HE frames and 455] parts to build 691 .455 HE 1st Model Triple Locks [#1 above “.44 HE 1st Model”, TLs with .455 Mk II chamberings]. These guns will be numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series [could be the 1st or 2nd Model .44 Spl serial number range; H of S&W, pg. 203]. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially.” Lee Jarrett
11/3/15 “In April, 1916, the Factory found enough parts to assemble 691 Triple Lock 455s. They were assembled from April to Oct of 1916. They were numbered in the 44 HE series. All I have seen are numbered from the 12 to 14,000's.
Some letter as commercial sales, but I have long suspected that S&W simply slid many into the last of the British shipments at the standard price for the 455-2nd Models. I say that because I have observed several now with Brit ordnance marks and/or commercial proofs.” Lee Jarrett
“Another suspicion? Some of the 691 sold on the commercial market were then purchased by a British purchasing agent and made their way across the pond that way, to get all stamped up.” JJC
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-han...#post138782125



*Canadian shipments of 14,500:

-1500 Shipped after Aug. 1915
-850 Shipped December 24th, 1915

-150 Shipped March 31st, 1916
-6,000 Shipped July 22nd, 1916

-6000 Shipped February 10, 1917

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Jim
S&WCA #819

You do not need any brass. A set of gap gauges will let you know if it has been reworked, which I get the feeling it has not. The gap between the recoil shield and the rear of the cylinder should be around .055" and the chamber length should be around .900"

The standard 455 Mk II is .77", while the 455 Enfield is .87". The 45 Colt brass measures 1.29". The rim of the 455 is .35" thick, while a 45 Colt is .60".

As far as the price goes, how much do you want to takre advantage of the guy? You know darn well what the gun is worth. Keep it and send the guy another $400 if it turns out to be original!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Wasn't able to procure a .45 casing so I went by your measurements. The gap between the cylinder and shield is correct and the distance from the cylinder face to the point in the chamber where it begins to taper and a bare metal ring has been worn on each cylinder is ~.9". So then it would appear to be original!

As for the double arrow marking, I was under the impression that Canada did not use such a marking but rather the C-broad arrow?


I've also got a ~1941 pre victory in .38 S&W that shows the C broad arrow on the left side of the frame and doesn't have the same double arrow symbol as the .455:

https://i.imgur.com/Sjz4eDt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SyRrfhW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/R5H3enM.jpg

This one has definitely not been converted to .38 spl and is also all original with all serial numbers matching.

I'm with Gary, you paid about half what that gun is worth, even if was converted to 45 Colt. If you don't want it I'll give you 20% more than you paid.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

That gun is not converted. It is chambered for .455. What a steal!

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Any idea on value for the k frame one? I think I paid around the same.

I'm going to pass on a valuation because we rarely see the British Service Revolvers unmodified. I will say that if you paid $315 US, you didn't get hurt. Someone else who is more up to speed on these guns may want to comment.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

since you indicate a sn of 64XXX, here is a letter from mine at sn 64xxx which you might find of interest..

like yours, no c broad arrow, just the 30 stamp on the butt of mine. I have an earlier one, @ 350xx that doeshave the c broad arrow mark.

Thank you blazer, that was very informative. Mine is around 400 or so off yours. Perhaps it is indeed a Canadian revolver then, though a letter would confirm when I am able to get one.