Trying get a better understanding of the different screw designs. When was the 5-screw started and discontinued? After the 5-screw was the 4-screw which was discontinued in 1961, correct? I'm referencing the K22 but was this true for all revolvers.

Does this have anything to do with how this Forum is divided? What is the logic for revolvers sections "1896-1961", "1961-1980" and "1980 to present. Do these eras represent design changes or manufacturing processes? Or?

I know this covers a lot of ground, trying to get a grasp on some of the basics. Thank for the help.

I'm a newb compared to most guys on here but my guess as to the forum divisions is after 1961 all S&W's were 3-screws. Pinned barrels ended around '79-'80.

In the beginning K and N frame S&W revolvers had five external screws. Three across the lower part of the side plate (one is under the stocks after WW II), a fourth screw in front of the trigger guard and a fifth at the very top of the side plate.

Around 1957-58 the top screw was eliminated. Around 1961 +/- the screw in front of the trigger guard was eliminated.

As with all things related to S&Ws dates, serial numbers and discontinuation of features are often effected at a whim. S nothing is certain on dates or "cut off points."

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No life story has happy end.

Actually, in the beginning (of the K frames) there was the 4-screw (also known as the "pre-5 screw 4 screw"). This was done to confuse folks like us a hundred or so years down the road---also perhaps to lend some small credibility to our annoying practice of referring to pre-model number guns as "pre"-such and such model number---rather than by their proper name.

To further confuse the issue, several of the frame sizes (the smaller ones about which I know next to nothing) have/had a different number of screws than their larger kin----and some of them haven't---at least not all the time.

All things considered, I believe you'll be happier and sleep better, if you don't spend a lot of time thinking about these screws---as long as you don't have any empty holes.

Ralph Tremaine

And the answer to your question about when the 5 screw was started is two-fold. As SP told you, in the beginning---of the N frame (the big one---at the time at least). It started on the K frame (the medium size one) with the M&P Model of 1905----except for the "pre-5 screw 4 screw Model of 1905" which is a model extant in the minds of some---and not so much in the minds of others. You don't want to be around when these conflicting minds get going.

And pretty much nothing is true for all revolvers.

The break in the forums at 1961 aligns with 3 screw gun production on K and N frames, and is a little after the use of engineering change dash #s began. That may be it, but that's a good question for our administrator, Lee Jarrett.

I can help you on the screw counts and dates however:

THE SHORT ANSWER:

Screw count is collector 'shorthand' to identify different vintages of otherwise same model guns MOSTLY for during the S&W rapid evolutionary period of the early post WW II years. It's based on the order of certain screws being eliminated by the factory as their model production evolved prior to and during the early factory Model dash number system. However the screw count has also evolved a bit as more Smith knowledge is learned and new applications have arisen.

SCREW DATE CHANGES:
• Eliminate mainspring tension screw, the 6th screw, as part of the I frame improvement to a coil mainspring, 1952.
• Eliminate front trigger guard screw, the 5th screw, as part of the New Model of 1953 I and J frames redesign.
• Eliminate upper sideplate screw change order 12/13/55 the 4th screw on I & J frames, on 9/7/55 the 5th screw on K frames, and on 9/7/56 the 5th screw on N frames.
• Eliminate front trigger guard screw, the 4th screw, from K and N frames, the dash 2 engineering change, 1961.

THE LONG ANSWER and probably more than you wanted to know:

Various gun collector terms/slang have surfaced over the years, some general but most specific to certain brands and models. The reason for these terms is usually to differentiate between and more specifically to identify different vintages and/or styles of similar models. Other examples are "pre model", "pre war", "post war", "baby Chiefs", etc., etc.

The miss-understanding and therefore improper use of several of these terms causes much consternation among many enthusiasts and forum users to say the least. Some will even argue about it rather than learn about it. There are no “rules” or “terms Police” for the use of these terms, but there is conventional wisdom which helps make their use more consistent and therefore more helpful.


1st understanding: The I and J frame screw numbers and screw counts are different from K and N frames.

2nd understanding: Always count the screw under the right grip because it isn't covered by the grip on early post war models up to around 1950. It’s a domed head screw when not covered by the original factory grips and a flat head screw when covered. In the early days of the Magna stocks, a relief dimple was drilled into the back side of the right stock panel to provide clearance for the round head screw before it was replaced with a flat head screw.

3rd understanding: There are exceptions as always with S&W firearms.


Screw numbering and screw count relative to frame size designations:

I frame collectors count the main spring strain screw as the 6th screw, which is like the K and N frames. But unlike them the strain screw on the I frame was deleted. All I frames dropped the 6th screw in the early 1950s, hence it is included in the screw count. And it's a helpful identifier between the early 50s I frame and the ‘Improved’ I frame.

Pre & Post war Transitional I frames were all 6 screws counting the strain screw, 4 screw side plates and the 5th, the TG screw. Baby Chief J frames were introduced as 5 screws with a coil main spring and no strain screw.

The I frame 6th screw was eliminated first with the Improved I frame c. 1952 (except the .22/32s which were not made on the Improved I frame and have no 5 screw version).

The trigger guard screw is the 5th screw because it was eliminated next on I and J frame sizes with the introduction of the Model of 1953 New I frame and New J frame respectively (.22/32s lost the 6th and 5th screws at the same time). So all I and J frames became 4 screw guns in 1953.

The 4th screw at the top of the side plate (called the "bug" screw at the factory) was eliminated next. So a 4 screw I and J frame has all four side plate screws and can also be referred to as a 4 screw frame. After the 4th screw (upper side plate screw or bug screw) was dropped they became 3 screw side plate/frame c. 1956, while the K & N frames didn't begin to transition to 3 screws until 1961, when the TG screw was finally eliminated.

K & N Frames: On K and N frame 5 screws, the upper side plate screw (bug screw) was the first to be deleted, therefore it is the 5th screw. So, unlike the I and J frames, the "4th" screw is in the TG. Fourth because it was the second screw dropped c. 1961.

So a 4 screw K or N frame has only 3 side plate screws and the 4th in front of the trigger guard; again, the top side plate screw, 5th screw, being the one eliminated first.

Exceptions:

1. 1st Model .32 HE, Model of 1896 with no trigger guard screw, and 4 or 5 side plate/frame screws thru out production, has two completely different 6 and 5 screw counts. The 6th screw being the top side plate screw.
Pictures of 1896 HE screws: pictures of HE

2. The original K frames, .38 and .32-20 were 4 screw guns; all 4 side plate screws but no trigger guard screw until the very late model of 1902, which introduced the 5th screw, in front of the trigger guard and are the scarce transition guns - about 10,000 of them. All became "5 screws" when that trigger guard screw was introduced on the 3rd Model M&P HEs (Models of 1905).

I hope this is helpful,

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

In a word, "WOW."

Thank you, Jim.

Bob

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

To add a couple of practical remarks to Hondo's excellent presentation:

Observe and learn; don't use the screw count as a reference until you have a grasp on when it does and does not matter, and until you are are reasonably sure you can count the screws correctly.

In case of the models most commonly asked about in this (and the next) subforum, the mostly fixed-sight K-frames, the complete serial number, even with the last digits x-ed out, provides all the info (and more) that the screw count does.

Finally, a somewhat touchy subject is the higher esteem in which some hold higher screw count guns. If you listen to some folks, craftsmanship took another nosedive every time a screw disappeared. Avoid any discussions about this until you've gathered lots of experience.

Hondo44,
By Gum; I'll say again, the forgoing dissertation by you, is why people enjoy coming here! Ovation!

Did this make anyone else's head hurt??????
JIM...................

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SWCA # L-1911

No, it didn't make my head hurt (my teeth a little bit maybe); but it did provide an excellent example to confirm my conclusions about the classifications of forum members. There are the complete neophytes, the accumulators/shooters, the collectors, the advanced collectors----and the students. Hondo44 falls into the latter category--along with a very small number of others---and when they talk, I listen---sometimes in awe.

Ralph Tremaine

Thank you Ralph, very kind comments indeed. And I'll always be a student, there's just too much to know!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Hondo44:

To echo what several others have already said -- great post.
I've been around these S&W's for over 50 years and I just
learned quite a bit!

Very good and informative posting!

All this comes under the classification of the more I learn the less I know. Lots of nuances to these S&Ws. Great info, thank for taking the time to share your expertise.

As usual Hondo44 gives an explanation in detail that we all learn from. The only thing lacking was a picture, so I will add one. By the way Jim, this should be in the SCAW4 that is coming out soon.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Thank you Dick. And thx for the photo of a K frame group of hard to find
snubbies, especially the sq butt 5 screw!

Jim Supica and I corresponded about an awful lot of stuff like this. The screw info above specifically was sent on 8/16/2015.

I know he won't get everything in that I sent, but hopefully some.

And then editing talks a toll. I could send enough for a book the size of the 3rd edition and he received a ton from others. I'd love to see a book with all of it but it would be 4" thick and cost a small fortune to produce and to buy, especially with a lot more photos. And more knowledge is added daily.

Someday after I'm gone or he's gone, or both gone, the book will need to be split into separate volumes, perhaps split up into this forum's sections. Each volume will be as thick as the 3rd edition. But people could afford just the volume section(s) of their interest. Tim Mullen has done this with K and N frames, and is working on the I and J frames. I sent him a ton just on those.

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Jim
S&WCA #819