Early K22 Masterpiece

cmansguns · #1 07-05-2018, 04:20 PM

Hello Forum,

Once again thought I knew my stuff but even after perusing SCSW 4th, 3rd, Blue Book and other sources...I find that only this forum contains the members who are behind all the written material so I'm going right to the source!

OK....I am into (for $875 OTD) an early post war K22, three digit serial number (K 9xx) which puts it at 1947, silver medallion diamond Magnas (numbered to the gun, stamped on right panel, not penciled), narrow rib barrel, square notch adjustable rear and "unknown" (to me) gold bead front sight, looks like a patridge, but with a grooved ramp, matching the bbl rib grooves.

The gun is a five screw, 1 line address (Made in USA) on right side along with large S & W logo stamp. Gun is P & R and measures 6" bbl. Trigger is serrated and .265" wide, hammer is .375" wide and is checkered on top. The hammer has a "flat" or "land" across the bottom surface.

I don't care about price estimates as I feel confident that my $875 is good to go even if not some "smoking hot deal of the century" but I need expert opinion on the following:

1. the front sight: does this one appear to be a patridge, or more like a McGovern or Call gold, special order in those days?

2. the hammer: does this look like long or short action? Is this hammer the one known as "humpback"?

3. Some say there is a premium for "large ejector rod" I know only a little about LERK, but how do you determine only a "large ejector rod"?

4. The gun appears to be what most collector publications call "postwar 3rd Model", yet I see on this forum from time to time members calling these type guns "Pre Model" so would this be a pre-Model 17, like I have a "pre Model 27"?

5. Is the term "Pre Model" really valid or only something used and known in collector get togethers? I have seen it used on GB and other internet sites so am just curious because I am very well known locally for stuffing foot in mouth and engaging mouth before brain...so don't need to prove I am really dumb on some issues.

Sorry for the ****** cell phone pics but good camera is not here at the moment and I am more interested in some answers before I either go shoot this gun OR Letter it if need be.

Thanks in advance cause I know you guys and gals are the most knowledgeable and will come through.

S&W ucla · #2 07-05-2018, 04:59 PM

Call gold bead, likely special order. McGivern would look like half hemisphere protruding from blade, your pic looks flat, but need closeup.
Hammer correct early postwar short action
LERK
Pre model 17
Ya done good!!

They started at K101, I would certainly letter that early a gun. Probably to distributor, but you never know.

hkcavalier · #3 07-05-2018, 05:55 PM

I wouldn't call it a "pre-17" since it had a name, the K-22 Masterpiece, that lets everyone know what you have. You can specify "early postwar" if you'd like.

This link is pretty informative: American Rifleman | A Look Back at the Smith & Wesson K-22

Looks terrific and definitely warrants a letter!

Hondo44 · #4 07-05-2018, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmansguns

1. the front sight: does this one appear to be a patridge, or more like a McGovern or Call gold, special order in those days?

2. the hammer: does this look like long or short action? Is this hammer the one known as "humpback"?

3. Some say there is a premium for "large ejector rod" I know only a little about LERK, but how do you determine only a "large ejector rod"?

4. The gun appears to be what most collector publications call "postwar 3rd Model", yet I see on this forum from time to time members calling these type guns "Pre Model" so would this be a pre-Model 17, like I have a "pre Model 27"?

5. Is the term "Pre Model" really valid or only something used and known in collector get togethers?

I agree completely with S&W ucla.

You have a very nice and totally righteous 2nd Model Masterpiece.

1. It is the Call bead Patridge and which was standard on early pre war K22s but an option on your vintage K22.

2. The hammer is the 'high speed action' hammer as S&W advertised it, i.e., the short action with the post war improved sliding bar hammer block safety. That's the reason for the 'land' as you called it on the face of the hammer. It's nick name is the 'fish hook hammer' and is the first wide spur 'target' style hammer used on the K frame target models.

3. It does have the large extractor rod knob or barrel knob like the pre war models. Most post war guns have the straight rod with no knob, just a knurled tip. The barrel knob and one line are the desirable features.

4. It can be called a 3rd model but most call it the 2nd model Masterpiece.

5. The term pre model is often mis-understood and used generically. The correct collector specific term Pre Model only applies to a ‘named’ model (like K22 Masterpiece) that immediately precedes when the company began the model ‘number’ stamping system, and incorporates all of the same design changes of their model numbered counterparts. Yours is a true Pre Model 17.

smith17 · #5 07-05-2018, 06:25 PM

"5. The term pre model is often mis-understood and used generically. "The correct collector specific term Pre Model only applies to a ‘named’ model (like K22 Masterpiece) that immediately precedes when the company began the model ‘number’ stamping system, and incorporates all of the same design changes of their model numbered counterparts. "

Regarding the "immediately precedes" statement, does that mean that a 5 screw 44 Magnum isn't really a pre-model 29 but a 4 screw non-model marked revolver is a pre-29 since it has the same design characteristics of the model marked 29? I mean, speaking in true collector lingo.
Ed

Hondo44 · #6 07-05-2018, 07:29 PM

Ed,

No it's a Pre model, a 5 screw. The screw count and 'Post War Transitional' are other analogues ways collectors identify a particular vintage model even more specific than Pre Model.

By 'design change', a Pre Model refers to long vs. short action and post war hammer block safety, not the many small details like hammer styles, # of screws, sight blade changes, etc. That's why screw count and TH, TT, TG (or three Ts) are also used to really pinpoint the exact version.

So with the differences in desirability and price, collectors necessarily came up with all these terms to identify exactly which version of a model gun they were referring to before model #s and dash numbers. Because S&W never really drew attention to the myriad detail changes the firearms were constantly undergoing before model #s.

Just like pre war models have 1st model, 2nd model and 1st change, 2nd change designations, etc. None of those are Smith designations. The screw count is usually not used on pre war models because they're almost all 5 screw models with the few exceptions like the Mod 1896 .32, the early 4 screw K frame, and the very scarce early 4 screw Triple Lock, for examples.

cgt4570 · #7 07-05-2018, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smith17

"5. The term pre model is often mis-understood and used generically. "The correct collector specific term Pre Model only applies to a ‘named’ model (like K22 Masterpiece) that immediately precedes when the company began the model ‘number’ stamping system, and incorporates all of the same design changes of their model numbered counterparts. "

Regarding the "immediately precedes" statement, does that mean that a 5 screw 44 Magnum isn't really a pre-model 29 but a 4 screw non-model marked revolver is a pre-29 since it has the same design characteristics of the model marked 29? I mean, speaking in true collector lingo.
Ed

Ed,
I reserve the use of the 'pre-model number' vernacular for simplicity when talking to non-collectors. I think that most of us with stuffed safes and extended libraries are more comfortable calling pre-numbered guns simply by their model names when talking amongst each other.

With that said, "4-screw pre-29" is a very easy way to convey to most anyone exactly what model you are referring to.