Probably with that title, I really need to break it down into two questions...

I’m looking at getting a Victory revolver, which was rechambered for .38 Special (originally in .38 S&W), and the barrel was shortened/lanyard ring hole filled in (still with the larger barrel dimension). Not really looking to run it in competition, but would like to shoot it from time to time (I like to shoot all my guns). I converted my 642-1 to 9mm, so do have some .38 Special laying around, but I may pick up another .38 revolver in the future (recently got my C&R license).

Now, most people might say... why on Earth would you want to buy a Victory like that when you can find other revolvers that were actually made for .38 Special? Lee Harvey Oswald...



Over the years, I acquired a Carcano that was pretty much setup as an Oswald clone. There is a slight difference in the profile of the scope (same scope, just one is later production than the other), but other than that, it is identical to that rifle. Getting that rifle in hand, I actually felt a little better understanding of what it would take to make a shot like that (shooting it with correctly sized ammo, that is a whole other thing). I don’t know too many people who even mention that with that scope setup, Oswald could have easily used the iron sights without any issue. Whether or not people believe in the conspiracy theories... holding a rifle like that really made me side with the likelihood that Oswald could have made that shot.

That being said, I like collecting guns for the historical aspect. Oswald had another gun that day... a Victory revolver in almost an identical setup as one that I’m looking at. Even that shooting had close to the same amount of questioning in what happened. It might be an oddity for most gun collectors, but seeing what “arsenal” a 24 year old flunky acquired and used on the day that he assassinated one of the most powerful leaders in the world... it definitely sparks some thought.

So, for the first part of the question... shooting generic range .38 Special, would this be something worth shooting? I’m figuring not going to be making the same groups as my 629-1 at 25 yards (that is a tack-driver), but if I can get it on paper out to maybe 10 yards, I’d call that good enough. It is a surplus military revolver, shortened in a pretty cheap manner, to make a concealable pistol. Not expecting Les Baer quality... just rather it be somewhat functional. I’m sure some in here have shot these pistols in that setup, or even own one.

Second part of the question, is it worth acquiring to add to the Carcano as a pair? I don’t think it is as odd as whoever purchased the guns that Charles Whitman used in the University of Texas shooting, but maybe having that Carcano skewed my perception. It’s not like I’m picking up a .22 Iver Johnson to have the assassination weapons for multiple politicians. Don’t think this part of the question is really one that will make/break my decision (first part is more what I’m looking for), but I like to hear what other people think.

Thanks for taking a look.

Totally depends on what gun looks like and price. Is it nice shape other than the modifications? Was the cylinder replaced with an actual 38 special cylinder? If the original cylinder which would have same serial number on face of it just reamed out? If so that would be a deal breaker for me. 38 S&W cases had a slightly larger diameter so if original cylinder was reamed out the 38 special cases will stick and split creating kind of a pain in the butt to shoot regularly. If the price is very cheap say $50 then its worth it but a modified victory revolver has no collector value and is worth $200max. If I were you I would wait for a 1905 military and police 4th change or a pre model 10 or model 10 to come along which were designed for 38 special ctg. and get one of them. They are a joy to shoot and relatively inexpensive as there were millions of them made in past 100 years. Some of the victories made for U.S. forces were originally 38special guns with 4 inch barrels that would most likely be the best gun to suit your need for an Oswald like gun but would certainly still be accurate out at 25 yards. Tight groups should be just as easy as your other S&W revolver. Good luck

As long as you realize that .38 special ammo fired in a rechambered .38 S&W cylinder is subject to swelling and possible splitting, go for it. You should be able to find a converted Victory model for $175-250.

You should be able to shoot "minute of paper plate" at 15 yards. Some of these conversions shoot quite well, so I've read.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

You have possibly the only good reason to buy one of those poor things - to complete your LHO collection!

You should be able to get one fairly cheap, and have a ball shooting it with standard .38 loads.

Make sure you recreate the famous picture!

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Rule of law, not a man.

If you can actually find one in LHO configuration, go for it.

They are exceedingly rare unless you build your own by butchering an original BSR.

Read the attached document. You’ll need one with the CAL 38 SPECIAL frame stamp that as far as we know only one importer (unknown) applied. Cut barrel, but original finish. No aftermarket stocks, but non-matching number. Swivel plugged.

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Charles Whitman had much better taste in guns than did Lee H. Oswald.

Collect stuff like his, and you'd get a nice Randall Model 1 knife, too!

I'm not wild about the fake stag grips on his Luger but it sure beats Oswald's cut up Victory Model. And you could hunt coyotes with the Remington M-700. I think I recall it was in 6mm Rem. caliber?

Or, just collect what Francis Gary Powers had when his U-2 was shot down over the USSR. You'd need a license for the silencer on the Hi-Standard .22 and the poison needle in the ccin might be tricky to have, but again, you'd have a nice Randall, Model 8.

Personally, I doubt that Oswald killed Kennedy. I lean toward the theory that mobsters did, maybe with the assistance of CIA elements and LBJ. I do think that Oswald killed Officer Tippett.

Have you tried cycling the bolt on the Carcano rapidly and practiced shooting at a moving target, like Kennedy's head? How'd that go?
You could use a big melon for a target, like the assassin did in, The Day of the Jackal. That was an impressive scene!

As part of his arsenal, Whitman had a Galesi .25 auto, along with a S&W Model 19 and a Luger 9mm. I have a Galesi .25 identical to his that I use as my carry gun. So far as I know, Whitman never fired his .25 that day in the Texas Tower.

Personally , I cannot stand the sight of a wartime .38 S&W with the barrel chopped off and ejector rod lug missing. I will never again put myself in the position of hammering swollen cases out of a reamed cylinder, not for any reason. If every chopped and reamed BSR were to be given a collective Vikings burial I would celebrate. Those destined for restoration be spared.

BUT - whatever floats your boat. Value? Whatever you want to pay for it.

I'm not into assassination stuff so I can't judge your interest.

I might pick up such a piece... as a loaner with 38S&W ammo supplied. I hear .357-.358 bullets work quite well. Hollow Base wadcutters might work even better. I might keep such a gun as a Home Defense Gun with 38S&W ammo... fire 6 & do a NY reload.

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NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs

Wish I could afford a 'Baby Face Nelson' or 'Machinegun Kelley' collection.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

Depends on the price. I'd probably buy one, but it would have to be mechanically sound and less than $200 out the door . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

[quote=daddio202;140274748]Is it nice shape other than the modifications? Was the cylinder replaced with an actual 38 special cylinder? If the original cylinder which would have same serial number on face of it just reamed out?

...Some of the victories made for U.S. forces were originally 38special guns with 4 inch barrels that would most likely be the best gun to suit your need for an Oswald like gun but would certainly still be accurate out at 25 yards./QUOTE]

Matching gun, with reamed cylinder. Could tell that from what I saw.

If I don’t get it, unless I see another identical revolver, not interested in a regular Victory. I’d rather get a M1917, Bodyguard, or Centennial...

Not a jab at them or people who collect/like them, but rather put money towards something else. The Oswald connection is sort of my only exception.



I don’t currently reload, so no issue with that. Would probably just toss brass that went through it, if I did (and since I switched to 9mm in my 642-1, doubt I’d actually reload .38). Probably would shoot something like UMC or WWB... as it is cheap, weak, and not too worried about it being dirty (can clean that; my D/I .45 AR... I stopped using those loads and switched to Blazer Brass).

Figured it would require some ammo experimentation. Kind of like what people say about 9mm down a .38 barrel... and that actually works somewhat well for me (no issue connecting at 25 yards with my J-frame).


I wouldn’t butcher a gun, but from what I was told, this gun went through the same process as Oswald’s. Need to look at a few details after your’s and sigp220.45’s posts.

Finish is original, but better condition than Oswald’s. Grips look original (if they match, not too big of a worry for me). Do know the hole is plugged.

Yea, more and more I think about it... I feel like one of the few who would ever seek that pistol out.


Marksmanship transitions across the board. If you can do it with a Garand, M14, AR... as long as you learn the firearm you are shooting, majority of people can connect. I think it comes down to Oswald having a lot more leeway than someone trying to mimic his exact shots. While people did it, Oswald only had to connect with JFK to be successful. Everyone since then has a tighter margin of error... whether putting shots on an exact target, or lining up ballistic medium to hit two targets with a single round.

In regards to the Carcano action, it was simple, cheap, and effective. I got a sporterized Type I as an introduction to it, and was impressed with it. Many people say it is garbage, but while it isn’t a Mauser, it is still a good design. Mine isn’t something that went through a gunsmith to clean it up, but cycling it isn’t that much of a hindrance. I’d put it above the smoothness if either of my Mosin Nagants. John Lattimer used to do examples of shooting within the time limit... well into his 80s.

As an aside, that also is why I’m sort of looking at the revolver. People today look at things, and if it isn’t a match barrel, or X gunsmith worked over the action... nobody could have did that.

I clearly remember the Dallas police detective waving the Carcano overhead, shortly after it was recovered from the School District warehouse where Oswald dropped it, claiming for the TV reporters he had the assignation weapon " a high powered Mauser rifle". If I recall correctly, Oswald's chopped Victory was eventually returned to his widow and sold at auction some years ago. Ed.

Guess L/E weren’t gun guys back then, either.

Returned to his widow? Amazing - these days if a law abiding citizen draws his weapon in self defense it is confiscated and in many cases (i.e. Milwaukee Wi.) the owner of the weapon faces a long legal battle to get his property back.
But I digress.

Last I heard, both the LHO rifle and revolver were in the National Archives and will stay there forever. Jack Ruby's Colt revolver was released to someone, and I think sold at auction for a huge sum back in the 90s, but I don't remember the details.

Regarding case swelling if the folks did the work right you won't have much. I have had one of each. On one the cases burst sometimes and just swelled others. On another gun there were no issues. I use it to hunt English walnuts.

On the first one I replaced the barrel to a 5" SW Victory barrel and went back to firing .38SW's. working great now.

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

I have two converted BSR's in my 20 years of accumulating, both shot to the point of aim accuracy, and was acceptable. The cases did swell but did not split, and were not difficult to extract. If one came up at a reasonable price today I wouldn't shy away from it as I hand load 38 S&W anyway. For your particular purpose it makes perfect sense to own one. I have had a few Carcanos, and have a few thoughts on the plausibility of it being "the" rifle used in the JFK assassination...

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Randy

"I use it to hunt English walnuts."

What's the daily bag limit on those?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

The evidence suggests the assassination itself was pretty straight forward and I'm confident that Oswald was the primary shooter, scoring a miss with his first shot, and a hit with his second.

The third shot was an accidental discharge by agent George Hickey, who had been sitting on the back of the rear seat of the following car and slipped as the car accelerated to follow the presidential limo after Kennedy was hit the first time. It wasn't a conspiracy that produced the third shot, it was an accidental shot resulting from a slip and poor trigger discipline.

The ballistic evidence is compelling and Howard Donahue's theory, detailed in "Mortal Error" is the only thing I've ever read that held together internally and explained all the evidence that's out there with no need for a convoluted theory or conspiracy.

The "conspiracy" in the Kennedy assassination was the cover up that followed. Robert Kennedy, the attorney general at the time, didn't want the death of his brother to be a tragic accident - nor did the secret service. That led to the body snatch at Parkland Hospital, the pressure to do a minimal autopsy at Bethesda, and the secret service's interference in the farce of an autopsy that was done, the disappearance of Kennedy's brain afterwards (that would have contained fragments of the .223 bullet that would have been metallurgically distinct from the 6.5mm Carcano bullet), and the notable absence of key testimony during the Warren commission investigation.

The Soviet, Cuban and mob conspiracies all served to distract attention from the actual flaws in the aftermath of the assassination. I was born the year after, but I'm confident that the fact will remain sealed until after anyone with a personal experience with the Kennedy assassination is long dead, as those facts won't inspire trust in our government. Maybe 100 years after the fact the government at that time will be ok with stating that the government then was involved in a massive lie about the Kennedy assassination.

Back to the S&W Victory conversions:

Some of them were very nicely done and it was a popular way to get an inexpensive .38 Special in the '60s. I came across one several years ago and while it shot ok, it was ammo sensitive - and it was hard on brass.

I never experienced any difficulty in extracting cases, but the longer.38 Special chambers continues past the shorter but larger diameter .38 S&W chamber. The original .38 S&W chambers were .0075" larger at the base than the .38 Special, and the .38 S&W also used a .360" bullet, so it was larger at the mouth than the .38 Special at that same length forward of the rim.

Chambers were cut two different ways in the conversions. The less desirable method was to just run a .38 Special reamer in the .38 S&W chamber to lengthen the throat to accommodate the longer .38 Special. The problem is that running the .38 Special reamer in the "over sized" .38 S&W chamber didn't ensure the rest of the chamber was cut on center. This method left a distinct step in the chamber. The other method was to use a reamer made for the purpose that just lengthened the .38 S&W chamber so that a .38 Special would chamber. This method leaves a normal looking chamber, just one that is over sized. If you have a cylinder that is numbered to the revolver and also has chambers with out a step, that's probably what was done. If they cylinder isn't numbered to the gun, you might have a replacement .38 Special chamber.

Given the .0075" over sized base of the case, case life is about like it is with the .45 Colt. In the .45 Colt the chamber is also tapered by .007" from front to rear while the .45 Colt case is parallel (it was designed that way to improve extraction back in the black powder era). That extra expansion works the brass excessively and you get short case life on the order or 4-5 reloads.

With the converted .38 S&W>.38 Special chamber you get similar excessive expansion, with spider cracks developing in the middle of the case wall after 4-5 reloads. Lighter loads are less problematic that higher pressure loads, and it's really better suited to light target loads than full 17,000 psi loads, and +P self defense loads are a bad idea.

You can play around with partially sizing the case, just sizing it enough to a) size the case enough to get adequate neck tension, and b) enough for it to chamber easily. On the other hand, once fired .38 Special brass is cheap so just resize it normally so you don't have to separate it from your other .38 Special.

I had good luck with plated bullets, as they are made from very soft lead and obturate well in the larger .360-.361 bore.

They don't have much collector value, but on the other hand, they are an interesting S&W variant. I still ended up trading mine off in partial trade for a pre-Model 10.

Are you saying that the Secret Service agent's AD 5.56mm bullet hit Kennedy? I'm not familiar with that theory, but it's interesting.

FWIW, I saw JFK in late May, before his death in November. He gave the commencement address at the USAF academy in Colorado Springs and I was among some additional Air Policemen driven over from Lowry AFB in Denver to assist Secret Service and OSI agents in protecting the President. I was paired with an OSI guy to protect part of the route leading directly into the tunnel under the stadium where JFK would speak. The President's car passed within 20-25 feet of me. The next guy down from us told me later that JFK took a swig from a flask as the car entered the stadium. I guess he needed a dose of liquid courage before speaking, or his back was troubling him from the injury incurred when the Japanese destroyer cut his PT-109 in half in WW II.

In case you're wondering, I was armed with a S&W Victory Model .38. The OSI guy showed me his M-15 Combat Masterpiece. He was in civilian clothes and his holster was a bad choice that showed the bulk of his gun under his suit. I suggested that he write to Chic Gaylord and get a better holster, and he seemed mildly interested, although shocked at Gaylord's prices.

The dining hall at the Academy had three strengths of coffee and five desserts!

I asked one of the cops working the main gate why his nightstick was shorter than most. He showed me that it had been hollowed out and filled with lead. He said that he found it very effective in subduing opponents!

BTW, one of the gate men told us that they had great success in meeting girls driving out after dropping off cadets. In all, the Academy seemed like a good base assignment..

Yes.

- The terminal ballistics and trajectory are a perfect match for the head wound and the position of the cars;
- It explains witness reports of gun fire at ground level;
- It explains the smell of gun powder at street level reported by witnesses in the rest of the motorcade;
- It explains the very short interval between the 2nd and 3rd shots; and
- It explains all the very odd behavior surrounding the events at the hospital, the autopsy at Bethesda and the selective exclusion of key witnesses and evidence in the Warren Commission's investigation.

The book is a very interesting read.

I read the book some time ago. I guess it was possible but I wasn't convinced. I was actually in downtown Dallas having a job interview at the time of the shooting, but on the opposite (east) end. I wasn't even aware Kennedy was in town until after the fact.

"The other method was to use a reamer made for the purpose that just lengthened the .38 S&W chamber so that a .38 Special would chamber. This method leaves a normal looking chamber, just one that is over sized."

Regarding re-chambering, there was a posting here some years ago by someone who claimed to have once worked at a machine shop where many BSRs were modified. He said he used an elongated .38 S&W cutter, not a .38 Special reamer. I had requested that he write an expanded posting going into more specific detail about what the machine shop did to those BSRs, but he did not respond. He did say that the work was being done for one of the big surplus arms importers, and that the machine shop owner was happy to get the work, as the importer paid his bills on time.

I used to be heavily into JFK conspiracy lore. Actually, it was this book and its crackpot theory that finally made me see the light and become, in a way, a believer in Occam’s Razor and the beauty of simple explanations.

The theory reminds me a bit of the folks who were convinced that on 9/11 the Pentagon was hit by a missile, not an airliner, and earnestly presented all kinds of photographic and other “evidence” for that. The annoying little fact that a gazillion eyewitnesses actually SAW the plane hit the building never fazed them.

Here it’s the same, except the other way. No matter what the theory supposedly explains, the idea that somehow a 5.56 rifle could be fired a few feet in front of dozens, if not hundreds of witnesses without anyone noticing is so ludicrous that we don’t even have to make fun of the unlikelihood of a cover-up perpetrated by all the other agents present.

Call your first witness . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Back to the original topic (if you want to continue the JFK conversation... no issue; any info regarding the rifle, I’ll give what I can), it looks like I might be getting the pistol.

I understand exactly how that can happen. Eye witness testimony is a funny thing. People see what they see, report it, and then over time as the narrative changes, so do the eye witness accounts - they literally change their recollection to fit the growing picture of what "happened". Witnesses usually have a need to try to understand the event they witnessed, and all those subsequent interviews will consequently be tainted by everything else the witness has heard and see and thought about since the event.

I always sought to interview a witness as soon as possible after the incident, interview everyone in isolation of everyone else, be very careful not to lead the witness, and never conduct multiple interviews if at all possible - get what we needed the first time.

FWIW - built up a M+P about 20 tears ago - used a Cogswell + Harrison .38 S&W cyl. modified to .38 Spec . - shoot it regularly + never had a burst case , some reloaded over 12 times -

On the OP's excellent condition Carcano, I'd rate it as "never fired, only dropped once" condition.

I've heard that a Cogswell + Harrison conversion is much better than the run of the mill bubba or quickie deal. Would you know what was done to the cylinder other than boring for the longer casing , as in , is there some sort of compensation for the difference in casing diameter? I suspect that there is , given the fact that your casings were reloadable.

Not all conversions are created equally, nor are all brass cartridges as strong & thick.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

While the C&H conversions were done better than most others, with the barrel cut in front of the lug, better re-finish, new stocks, etc., all that I‘ve encountered had simple reamed chambers, not sleeved chambers or .38 Spl replacement cylinders, the only two practical ways to do better.

I don't know how the conversion was done - I obtained the cyl. , crane , + lock work at a gun show in the 1990's - cyl accepts both the S&W + special ammo - it will not accept .357 mag. cases - I shot it with both factory + my reloads - .38 spec. 3.5 grns. red dot 158grn. lead swc home hard cast - .38S&W with 2.3 grns. red dot 158 grn lead swc home soft cast - you can detect a very slight bulge on base of .38 spec cases after firing - no signs of pressure or cracking on any brass -

Alright , I now understand that Cogswell + Harrison did a decent job of modifying BSRs to accept .38 special ammunition , but did not do an actual conversion to that caliber. In was wondering about that , now I know.

schutzen-jager , that certainly is a distinctive looking revolver you have there.

started out as a demilled stripped 1907 frame + 6 inch shot out .38 special bbl. - wore a 5" .38S&W bbl. for awhile - had accuracy problems with special ammo so installed the mdl. 15 bbl. - I now use .358 cast bullets in .38S&W cases - side plate from old victory model - vintage wonder sight + grip adapter -

I am not familiar with a "Wonder Sight". Could you post a better picture of that feature?

(If there is a theme song for thread drift , play it now. My quarter in the juke box.)

Let it ride... I’m interested in the discussion.

I’m heading up to Maine for a few days, so not even getting stuff squared away on the deal until I get back (1/1). Probably over a week/week and a half before I get the gun in hand. Will jump back in when I get it (should know definitely by tomorrow).

More or less... the Victory is pretty much a Model 10, right? Might be stopping at Cabela’s on the way up, so thinking about grabbing some speedloaders for it. I’m also considering a holster for it, but likely will wait until I get it.

Wondersight « Hollow Point Bullet Mold Service
was popular accessory back in the 40's + 50's for the 5 screw S&W revolvers - see link , it now being reproduced -

Continuation of drift :

The Wonder Sight is very interesting. I wonder if a later 10 without upper side plate screw can be drilled and tapped to accept that modification ...?

The Victory models all have the pre WW II long action. In 1948, S&W went to a short action. When model numbers were assigned by the factory in 1957, the Military & Police became the Model 10. Some parts will interchange between the long action and the short action.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

When the Wonder Sight came out, it had a longer screw to replace the upper side plate screw. Another revolver, like a Colt or a S&W without the upper screw, could be drilled and tapped for this screw.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Got you. Cylinder holes similar enough that speedloaders for a Model 10 will work in a Victory?

And I am getting the revolver.

Also picked up the 02/1963 copy of American Rifleman off eBay (15% coupon)... which was the source for Oswald getting his rifle. Went from just an odd Italian rifle to a pretty unique Oswald collection in just a week or two. Debating on hunting down a Colt Cobra with hammer shroud... but probably wouldn’t happen until I move.

Yes, a Model 10 speedloader will work just fine.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Not just similar enough, identical. The differences are pretty much confined to internals and individual fitting of parts. External dimensions of large parts (frame, barrel, cylinder) are the same across the M&P/Victory/Model 10 sequence for most of the line and those parts can and have been installed interchangably.

So any peripherals like speedloaders, aftermarket grips, holsters, etc. will work for all, as long as you take various peculiarities into account (ejector rod knob shapes, lanyard loops, no round butt on Victorys, etc.)

yes it can - instructions for drilling are provided with the reproduction ones - also work on other wheel guns with flat surface to mount them on -

Excellent. I have a 10-5 with an excellent trigger - it is a prime candidate.

Well, I have a few more questions... not related to the Victory, but holsters of the time.

Anyone have any knowledge of what this holster is?



There’s also this shot, which is a little harder to see it...



I’ve been looking into this for a little bit, even picking up the Dale Myers book on the Tippit shooting. While some view this as two different holsters, Myers believes they are likely the same.

Looks like a plain old Hunter holster to me.

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Rule of law, not a man.

Unbelievable.... it must be a conspiracy...... Was at a show over the weekend and just saw the thread. About a month or so ago I saw a U-Tube video on the "Oswald / Hiddell" .38. I have three of these Coggeswell conversions I bought over 40 years ago in my safe. Paid almost nothing for them. Was thinking of selling one at a show or on Gunbroker with the background info on the history of these and the Oswald connection. Anyway, I have been watching U-Tube videos of the Kennedy's assination. I was 13 years old when it happened. The Mark Lane videos are revealing. There is no way there was was not a conspiracy.... but that is another story.