Finally a Triple-Lock

jmace57 · #1 02-21-2019, 04:21 PM

I won the below Triple-Lock in an auction a few weeks ago, that was mis-identified as a commercial Model of 1917. It has been one of my grail guns. I paid $810 for it, plus commission.

It is serial number 225.

Got you! ...of the 1915 British Order

It is stamped with all of the British WW1 stampings you would expect. And the post-war (post WW2? nitro proofs, bombs, NOT ENGLISH MAKE) stamps.

The Good

It appears to be in nice condition. Functions well, gorgeous finish, grips, etc.

...note the pinpoint dents in the bottom of the grip that says "H G Scott"

The Bad

Note this little stamp here... ugh 45AR (I knew this going into the auction)

...and the shaved cylinder.

The MAYBE?

I can't tell if it's been refinished...or if it has some scratches where it's just been aggressively polished? The usual clues (dished screws,side plate seams, flattened pin on left side of frame) are not present. I honestly can't tell if the stampings have blue in them.

jlemay69 · #2 02-21-2019, 04:58 PM

Believe it will still chamber & fire 455 Webley Mk. II. 45AR is still available as well.

Kroil and brass wool will clean up rust. Clean it well and enjoy.

SAFireman · #3 02-21-2019, 05:27 PM

Looks good to me. You going to bring it to the symposium for shown and tell?

handejector · #4 02-21-2019, 05:59 PM

It looks like a good reblue.
I doubt it will still shoot 455s with the shaved cyl- too much headspace.

andy52 · #5 02-21-2019, 06:26 PM

At 810 bucks I wouldn't worry to much about the maybes, possibilities or what ifs. With that low of a ser# I would have all over it at that price.

Muley Gil · #6 02-21-2019, 06:31 PM

Be aware that the standard .45 ACP load develops more pressure than the standard .455 load. ACP is close to a proof load for the .455. .45 Auto Rim is much closer to .455 pressures.

mrcvs · #7 02-21-2019, 06:40 PM

Yes, .45 ACP is too much for a Triple Lock. Stick to .45 Colt.

$800 to $850 is about right for one of these rechambered from the original .455 Webley...IF not reblued.

I own Number 225 chambered in .44 Special. Pictures forthcoming late Saturday or Sunday.

atx357 · #8 02-21-2019, 07:04 PM

Definitely does not look like 100 year old blueing to me (i.e., I also think it's been reblued) but as mentioned above...congrats! Nice find! My triple lock has basically no finish left. But on 5 of 6 cylinders it still shoots my handholds into under an inch at 25 yards. It's great to keep those old guns making noise...

Modified · #9 02-21-2019, 07:40 PM

100% refinish, no doubt about it.

The sideplate fit, and the slightly plum cylinder give it away.

Should be a good shooter anyway, Congratulations!

6string · #10 02-21-2019, 07:51 PM

Regarding the use of 455 Webley/Eley etc. in a 45 ACP/AR conversion, they may or may not be capable of discharging.
But, it is not very safe. There is about 0.050" excess headspace.

Should you happen to fire an older "balloon head" cartridge, such as vintage Dominion, D.C & Co., Kynoch, etc., the case head could blow out with a bad gas leak into the breech area.

Use 455 load data in AR brass and you're good to go. Stick to lead bullets, at least .455" diameter, and use a 45 Long Colt size die. ACP dies are too small. Your case will be undersize, so shorter case life, less accuracy, swaged down lead bullets.... just not advisable.

Looks like a fun shooter!
Jim

series guy · #11 02-21-2019, 07:54 PM

I would have jumped at that price too. Nice gun. How can two people own #225?

jmace57 · #12 02-21-2019, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAFireman

Looks good to me. You going to bring it to the symposium for shown and tell?

Yes, sir. I am.

jmace57 · #13 02-21-2019, 08:20 PM

Series guy. Apparently the British contract had its own number range.

mrcvs · #14 02-21-2019, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by series guy

How can two people own #225?

There were 15,376 commercially produced Triple Lock revolvers, numbered 1 to 15,376. There were approximately 5000 Triple Lock revolvers produced for the British government, also starting with serial number 1. Therefore, the approximately first 5000 commercially produced Triple Lock revolvers also have, or had at one time, a British counterpart with an identical serial number.

series guy · #15 02-21-2019, 10:37 PM

Well there you go! More information to impress the good looking women at parties.

jlemay69 · #16 02-21-2019, 11:25 PM

As mentioned above, there were two series.

Some 800 of the 15375 44 HE (TL) were manufactured/converted to .455 Webley Mk II caliber for shipment to England.

Some 5,000 to 6,000 .455 Mk II HE 1st Model (TL) were manufactured for shipment to England. The British didn't think much of the TL and Ejector Shroud (potential mud fouling of cylinder opening).

The British purchased 69,754 .455 II HE 2nd Model. Deleted the third lock and ejector shroud. Total 74755 between the two models. I have a 2nd Model with Canadian Proofs and another with British proofs. My 1st Model doesn't have foreign proofs so it likely smuggled into the US in soldier's barracks bag.

Hondo44 · #17 02-23-2019, 12:00 AM

jmace57,

Congrats, a very decent pretty early ".455 TL 1st Model" (category 2 below). It's numbered at the very beginning of the British contract serial # range. But it's about the 891st TL shipped under the Brit's contract, the first 666 TLs being the ".44 TL 1st Model" factory converted from 44 Spls to 455, preceded yours but are numbered in the 44 Spl TL serial # range.

The below will clarify the four categories of Brit Svc revolvers and with more precise serial # ranges in each:

1. “44 Hand Ejector-1st Model” Triple Lock, 812 (666 military & 146 commercially sold) in the 44 Spl # series factory converted to 455. Serial #s are listed in Neal & Jinks S&W 1857 – 1945, Pgs. 204-205. Only marked Smith & Wesson with no cartridge marking.

2. “455 Hand Ejector-1st Model” Triple Lock #1 thru ~#5800* (previously thought to be 5461, and several higher #s in this range shipped commercial)

* “The .455 H.E. First Model 5462 is in the last shipment [1915] of the model for the British Government. After this shipment there were some of this model sold commercially. The serial number range is now know to actually go to 5800 including the commercially shipped guns. Since the factory did not keep any records of the cut off at the end of a model change, it has taken years to put together all the data to obtain the correct serial ranges. I have to tell you that in the game of collecting S&W's for 50 years I still am learning about various models and changes I did not think were possible when I started this research.” Roy 8/25/18 Triple Lock 455 HE 1st Model Discovery/Puzzle

3. “455 Hand Ejector-2nd Model” ~#5801 (previously thought to be 5462) thru 74755.

4. “44 Hand Ejector-1st Model” Triple Lock; 691 assembled at the end of the British contract but sold on the commercial market 1916-17, built from remaining TL frames and numbered in the 44 Spl # series ~ 12,000 – 14,XXX range. (Although some are known to have been shipped to or wound up in England).

I hope this helps,

Hondo44 · #18 02-23-2019, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcvs

There were 15,376 commercially produced Triple Lock revolvers, numbered 1 to 15,376. There were approximately 5000 Triple Lock revolvers produced for the British government, also starting with serial number 1. Therefore, the approximately first 5000 commercially produced Triple Lock revolvers also have, or had at one time, a British counterpart with an identical serial number.

A. There are 64 .455 duplicates of TL #s of the existing 666 contract listed numbers of ".44 HE 1st Model" TLs factory converted to .455 #s 1104-5755 in the .44 HE # range (not all inclusive, known and listed [S&W 1857 – 1945 pgs. 204-205]), with 64 of the ".455 HE 1st Model" TLs #s 1 to 5800 in the Brit contract # range.

B. There can be ~ 4988 .44 TLs duplicated serial #s with .455 TLs like the OP's #225 .455 and mrcvs's #225 .44 Spl.

rubiranch · #19 02-23-2019, 10:32 AM

A good friend helped me out quite a bit with some guns I ended up with.
To pay him back I gave him a nice triple lock and a 4" Highway Patrolman, a pre-28.
He still gets two more choices. I gave him first pick.

mrcvs · #20 02-23-2019, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubiranch

A good friend helped me out quite a bit with some guns I ended up with.
To pay him back I gave him a nice triple lock and a 4" Highway Patrolman, a pre-28.
He still gets two more choices. I gave him first pick.

Will you be my friend?

mrcvs · #21 02-24-2019, 10:09 AM

And here is serial number 225, chambered in .44 Special. Shipped January 1908. Overall, not a bad Triple Lock, although someone filed the rear of the front sight at some time.

Hondo44 · #22 02-24-2019, 11:50 PM

That's a nice 44 TL and the front sight is just like the .22/32 Kit Gun S&W factory USRA Pocket sight that came along in 1935. I wonder if it was a factory special order alteration.

It also has the early barrel marking only used until between #s 561 and 660.

mrcvs · #23 02-25-2019, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

That's a nice 44 TL and the front sight is just like the .22/32 Kit Gun S&W factory USRA Pocket sight that came along in 1935. I wonder if it was a factory special order alteration.

It also has the early barrel marking only used until between #s 561 and 660.

Yes, I forgot that it would indeed have the early barrel markings. Thank you for pointing that out.

As for the front sight, I sure wish it was a special order feature. The attached photographs demonstrate that it is a somewhat amateur after market modification.

I also added a photograph of the sideplate with the S & W logo because it better reflects the present condition of this revolver, including bluing.

Hondo44 · #24 02-25-2019, 10:50 PM

Still a great TL! There's so many not near that good.

I'd be compelled to touch up the front sight shape a bit, like where the blade just below the notch is not a round curve, and the notch should be nearer to the middle, but that's just me.

Photo credit: mikepriwer