1902? or, 1905? Or, Transitional? Or..?

Hi all..!

Sorry to have been such a stranger, been working double shifts months on end now...

Just picked this up today, have not cleaned, oiled, waxed yet -

What do I have here?

Is this an m1902 Square Butt?

Or, is this an m1905 'Four Screw'?

Or...how would we identify or term this configuration?


Hosted on Fotki

Hosted on Fotki

Hosted on Fotki

Hosted on Fotki

Hosted on Fotki

It's a somewhat confusing nomenclature situation, but what you have is an early .38 Model of 1905 (no change) from, probably, 1906. The grips are probably original to it. The Model of 1902 (4-screw and 5-screw) always has a rounded butt. Some consider a round butt revolver with five screws to be a Model of 1905, but that is incorrect, and it can result in intense arguments. There is no such thing as a round butt Model of 1905. The square-butt (1905) variation was introduced into, and intermingled with, the round-butt (1902) serial number series at around SN 58000 (.38 Special), and that is the cause of the confusion. At SN 62450 (.38 Special), S&W changed the design of the cylinder stop and added the 5th frame screw to both the 1902 and the 1905. But that was clearly an engineering change and does not constitute a model change (as some contend). "Transitional" is one of those terms which is undefined (or at least there are widely differing definitions of it) and its use is best avoided as it is imprecise.

S&W ended the confusion (of course S&W itself was never confused) by dropping the Model of 1902 and Model of 1905 nomenclature at around WWI. Thereafter, they were all M&Ps, either square butt or round butt. It would have been better if S&W had done that to begin with. Unfortunately, some collectors and some references continue to use the Model of 1902/05 nomenclature to refer to M&Ps made until WWII, which is not strictly correct.

I believe your gun would be considered a 38 M &P 2nd Model or Model 1902 First change due to the 4 screw pattern and the " flared barrel" where it meets the frame.

Pre-5 screw, 4 screw Model of 1905.

Regards,
Bruce

DWalt said:

It's a somewhat confusing nomenclature situation, but what you have is an early .38 Model of 1905 (no change) from, probably, later 1906. The grips are probably original to it. The Model of 1902 (4-screw and 5-screw) has a rounded butt. Some consider a round butt revolver with five screws to be a Model of 1905, but that is incorrect, and it can cause intense arguments. The square-butt (1905) variation was introduced into, and intermingled with, the round-butt (1902) serial number series, and that is the cause of the confusion. At serial number 62450 (.38 Special), S&W changed the design of the cylinder stop and added the 5th frame screw to both the 1902 and the 1905. But that was an engineering change which does not constitute a model change (as some contend). "Transitional" is one of those terms which is undefined (or at least many people have widely differing definitions of it) and is best not used.

S&W ended the confusion (of course S&W itself was never confused) by dropping the Model of 1902 and Model of 1905 nomenclature at around WWI. Thereafter, they were all M&Ps, either square butt or round butt. It would have been better if S&W had done that to begin with.

Click to expand...

Okeydoke!

Thanks DWalt!

1905


"S&W ended the confusion (of course S&W itself was never confused) by dropping the Model of 1902 and Model of 1905 nomenclature at around WWI. Thereafter, they were all M&Ps, either square butt or round butt. It would have been better if S&W had done that to begin with."

Well , that would have been imminently sensible , but if that had happened this forum would be a less lively place.

Very nice gun. I had a target version that was from the same time frame.
I really like the wood on the stocks. I think you would be stunned at the grain if you were to have them restored.
I believe Smith was using Circassian Walnut at the time.

Chukar60 said:

Very nice gun. I had a target version that was from the same time frame.
I really like the wood on the stocks. I think you would be stunned at the grain if you were to have them restored.
I believe Smith was using Circassian Walnut at the time.

Click to expand...

Thank you Chukar60..!

Does yours then have the 'four screws' with the 'Square' Butt?

The Stocks are indeed a lovely Wood...from some angles one might take it to be Indian Rosewood for its colors and substance.

I'll give them a nice Waxing with a Tooth Brush, when I do my general clean & oil and so on for the whole.

I do have a Model of 1902 Target, not sure if I can get to it any time soon, ( but if I can, I'll start a little Thread for it ) and it has the same Wood for it's Stocks ( only it is a Round Butt, of course! ).

Those grips are very distinctive. Personally , I have not seen grain color contrast such as that in grips , or stocks if you prefer , of that era.

IMO , that detail makes an already desirable revolver all the more so.

For me, the question is what characteristic defines the 1902 vs the 1905? The gun's serial number clearly falls into the 1902 range (below 62,449). The lack of a 5th screw also fits a 1902, but the square-butt indicates 1905. I do not know how members with absolutely no hesitation know it is a 1905 or 1902? I believe that gun was shipped in mid-1905 according to nearby serial numbers in the SWCA database. There are other changes that are less obvious, but it would be interesting to know if everything is 1902, except for the square-butt? If there are about six changes made total. My question is why would the factory make the new square butt frame without the 5th screw??

As for the stocks, I have several from Model 1899 to early Model 1905 that used a different walnut and it made this period stocks distinctive. I think it was Circassian walnut that was used prior to WWI, but can someone confirm??

The bottom line of this brouhaha is there are different strokes for different folks. It's your gun---call it as you will.

The unfortunate part of all this is you will note some who will tell you what's correct. It's all well and good to explain the whys and wherefores of a particular choice, but------------------------------------------------------------------

Ralph Tremaine

rct269 said:

. . . It's all well and good to explain the whys and wherefores of a particular choice, but---------

Ralph Tremaine

Click to expand...

Thanks Ralph, I would end your sentence by simply saying

---------few do so!

My 1902 1st Change Target has a serial number 61893, 83#'s later than the OP's revolver. If you take the stocks off you will probably see two springs, one the normal hammer spring and then a second spring pinned to the forestrap of the grip. That's the 1902 action that I don't think was continued into the 1905 model.

Stu

glowe said:

As for the stocks, I have several from Model 1899 to early Model 1905 that used a different walnut and it made this period stocks distinctive. I think it was Circassian walnut that was used prior to WWI, but can someone confirm?

Click to expand...

Yes. Circassian Walnut. Here are a couple pics of some that are in my collection.
Square butt from 1908:


Round butt from c. 1911:


It seems to me that the Circassian wood generally has more figure than American or Black walnut. Maybe that is why eventually S&W settled on GA for target stocks. The American walnut target stocks I have from the 1960s and 1970s is pretty plain stuff.

Oyeboteb said:

Thank you Chukar60..!



Does yours then have the 'four screws' with the 'Square' Butt?



The Stocks are indeed a lovely Wood...from some angles one might take it to be Indian Rosewood for its colors and substance.



I'll give them a nice Waxing with a Tooth Brush, when I do my general clean & oil and so on for the whole.



I do have a Model of 1902 Target, not sure if I can get to it any time soon, ( but if I can, I'll start a little Thread for it ) and it has the same Wood for it's Stocks ( only it is a Round Butt, of course! ).

Click to expand...

Here is (was) Chukar60's gun. It is a pre-5 screw, 4 screw 1905.

Regards,
Bruce

glowe said:

For me, the question is what characteristic defines the 1902 vs the 1905? The gun's serial number clearly falls into the 1902 range (below 62,449). The lack of a 5th screw also fits a 1902, but the square-butt indicates 1905. I do not know how members with absolutely no hesitation know it is a 1905 or 1902? I believe that gun was shipped in mid-1905 according to nearby serial numbers in the SWCA database. There are other changes that are less obvious, but it would be interesting to know if everything is 1902, except for the square-butt? If there are about six changes made total. My question is why would the factory make the new square butt frame without the 5th screw??

Click to expand...

The 1905 (square butt) began at (around) SN 58000 (.38 Special), but the SN alone, if above 58000, cannot tell you whether it is a 1902 or a 1905, as both models were intermixed in the same SN range, sort of like the U. S. service Victories and the BSRs. All .38 Specials, 1902 and 1905, with SNs below 62450 have four screws. After that, five screws. The difference between the 1902 and the 1905 is the butt shape, round or square. There are no round butt 1905s and no square butt 1902s. Regarding dating, my records show a wide range of SNs in 1905-06. e.g., I show a range from 58652 to 63146 as shipping in 1905, and a range of 58201 to 85700 as shipping in 1906. So a letter would be necessary to tell when a specific gun was shipped.

bruce5781 said:

Pre-5 screw, 4 screw Model of 1905.

Regards,
Bruce

Click to expand...

Well, that does sum it all up very nicely!

rct269 said:

The bottom line of this brouhaha is there are different strokes for different folks. It's your gun---call it as you will.

The unfortunate part of all this is you will note some who will tell you what's correct. It's all well and good to explain the whys and wherefores of a particular choice, but------------------------------------------------------------------

Ralph Tremaine

Click to expand...

Thanks Ralph!

For me, it is an interesting invitation for some exercise in thought, for sure...and since I so love the early K Frames, and their succession of changes, it is all great fun.

And as Bruce had posited - 'Pre-Five-Screw, Four-Screw, Model of 1905', probably is about as elegant and clear and comprehensive in it's way, as anyone could hope for.

stu1ritter said:

My 1902 1st Change Target has a serial number 61893, 83#'s later than the OP's revolver. If you take the stocks off you will probably see two springs, one the normal hammer spring and then a second spring pinned to the forestrap of the grip. That's the 1902 action that I don't think was continued into the 1905 model.

Stu

Click to expand...

Here's a snap shot with the Side Plate off ( pending a dismantle and cleaning and Oiling later tonight )...

Hosted on Fotki

bruce5781 said:

Here is (was) Chukar60's gun. It is a pre-5 screw, 4 screw 1905.

Regards,
Bruce

Click to expand...

Thanks Bruce!

Nice to see a sibling!