Barrel Patent Dates Question

Did any of the first model M&P .38 Special revolvers (1899-1902) display patent dates on the top of the barrel?

The Standard Catalog describes barrel patent dates for .32 caliber revolvers, but I cannot find any comment about patent dates on the barrels of the first .38 Special revolvers. I suspect the revolver in question has been given a .32 barrel that has been bored out to .38.

Thanks for any information you can provide.

It depends on the vintage of the .38 Spl and which .32 cartridge and vintage you're comparing. There was no .32 at the time of the 1st model M&P in 1899. The earliest .32 was the .32/20 Winchester that wasn't introduced until 1902. Neither had patent dates on the top of the barrel until the Model of 1905 - 3rd change in 1909 at which time the .32/20 was moved from the side. Before that it's murky.

What makes you "suspect" a .32 barrel that has been bored out to .38?
What caliber is roll marked on it?

Hondo44 said:

It depends on the vintage of the .38 Spl and which .32 cartridge and vintage you're comparing. There was no .32 at the time of the 1st model M&P in 1899. The earliest .32 was the .32/20 Winchester that wasn't introduced until 1902. Neither had patent dates on the top of the barrel until the Model of 1905 - 3rd change in 1909 at which time the .32/20 was moved from the side. Before that it's murky.

What makes you "suspect" a .32 barrel that has been bored out to .38?
What caliber is roll marked on it?

Click to expand...

I suspect it has been rebarrelled because the bore is immaculate, looks brand new, and I think that is unlikely for a revolver with frame and cylinder serial numbers (which match) dating to late 1900 or early 1901. ".38 S&W Special CTG" is stamped on the left side of the barrel just in front of the frame. There are two lines of patent dates on top of the barrel ending with "OCT 4 98".

It's fine with me that it has been reblued and possibly rebarrelled. It locks up tight and groups mild target loads reasonably well at point of aim at 10 yards. I did not pay a lot for it; it looks cool nestled among its younger cousins. The revolver's appearance matches what a first model M&P should look like. I was simply curious about trying to pin down if the 5" tapered barrel, which does not have the flared collar by the frame (as in later models) is original to the gun.

Thanks for your interest.

If the ".38 S&W Special CTG" stamped on the left side of the barrel is a factory roll mark, and the barrel serial # matches the gun, it wasn't rebored.

You can check the barrel serial # underneath on the flat spot to see if it matches the frame and cyl. If S&W changed the barrel the serial # will be re-stamped and match the gun and it will have a date stamp under the grip on the left side of the grip frame.

FYI:

SERIAL # LOCATIONS: To confirm all parts are original, one can check for the 6 (or 7 - Triple Lock models only) matching serial # locations for fixed sight pre war Hand Ejectors and all post war Hand Ejectors thru ~1956 and a few as much as 3 years later.
NOTE: Observing serial #s with accuracy or even existence, especially on penciled stocks, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that they are there!

1. Grip frame butt (prefixed by a letter(s) following WWII) - or fore strap on I frame Regulation Police models and single shots with grips that cover the butt

2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud, (Triple locks have tiny #s stamped in front end of the shroud; sideways/vertical if over 3 numerical digits, otherwise horizontal).
3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight (except the .32 Model 1896 and no doubt a few others)

4. Extractor star – backside (which is actually the side facing the muzzle).
5. Cylinder - rear face
6. Right stock only - on back, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material, stamped after 1929, (except most post war target grips because individual fitting not required.)

7. .44 TL models only: rear side of middle lock cam plate (Triple Lock models only)

Pre war serial #s on the butt read with barrel to the right and are centered, or offset if produced with a lanyard swivel (factory installed swivels are drilled with a jig and always 1/10” forward of center). Post war #s read with barrel to the left and are all offset to the rear.

ASSEMBLY (factory work, soft fitting) #s: These multi-digit numbers of 3 to 5 digits, are on the yoke at the hinge, in the ‘yoke cut’ of the frame opposite the yoke near the hinge (usually accompanied with the inspector’s letter or # code stamp of approval, but not always), and inside of the sideplate, for the pre war and early post war period thru ~early 1958. Once the gun is shipped, the only use for the assembly # is to confirm the three parts it's stamped on, are original to the gun. These are still in use to this day.

After the 6/22/1957 change order, Model #s were assigned and eventually stamped on the frame in the yoke cut. The serial # was soon after added in the ‘yoke cut’ as well and the assembly # moved from there to the left side of the grip frame parallel to the butt. More currently beginning in the 1980’s we see non-matching multi-digit numbers parallel to the butt left or right side, and inside the side plate.

Hondo44 said:

If the ".38 S&W Special CTG" stamped on the left side of the barrel is a factory roll mark, and the barrel serial # matches the gun, it wasn't rebored.

You can check the barrel serial # underneath on the flat spot to see if it matches the frame and cyl. If S&W changed the barrel the serial # will be re-stamped and match the gun and it will have a date stamp under the grip on the left side of the grip frame.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the excellent guidance. I am obviously new at this. I did not know to look for a serial number under the barrel. The serial number on this old gal is there and matches the number on the bottom of the grip frame and the cylinder, 4 digits, just under 10,000. There are no numbers under the grip panels on either side of the grip frame. So she looks to be all original, and perhaps I should buy a lottery ticket!

I'm new to posting here. If you will train me on posting photos, I will try.

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! There is a video tutorial on how to post pictures in a sticky post in the Forum Office sub-forum.

I have two 1899's, a nickel 5" and a blue 4" shipped Dec 1900 and Jan 1901 respectively. Both have a double row of patent dates.

H Richard said:

I have two 1899's, a nickel 5" and a blue 4" shipped Dec 1900 and Jan 1901 respectively. Both have a double row of patent dates.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the reassurance and confirmation!

Ardeebee said:

Did any of the first model M&P .38 Special revolvers (1899-1902) display patent dates on the top of the barrel? . . .

Click to expand...

Welcome to the Forum.

A couple of contradictions exist in the posts above. Starting on page 321 of Neal & Jinks book is a listing of all barrel patent dates, as well tip-up cylinder dates, and Model 1896, 32 1st with patent dates on the cylinder. The Model 1899 Military revolver had full address and patent dates ending in Oct. 4, 1898. You can find all the changes in those dates in a 7 page section of the book. You should realize that there are many exceptions to the dates, since old parts were often used after introduction of various engineering changes until existing stock was used up, so transition periods are prevalent throughout production of each and every model. This is still a very valuable resource not reproduced anywhere else.

There was also some confusion about the "32" caliber. We now know you are not confusing 32 Hand Ejector Model 1903 with the 32 Winchester? The 32 Winchester (32-20) was actually introduced the same time as the 38 in 1899. The carried the same barrel patent dates. I show an example of the 32 Winchester below, serial number 3805.