Model 1917 Target in .45 Colt

linde · #1 03-15-2009, 10:33 AM

I posted this unusual Model 1917 under another thread that was discussing conversions from 45 ACP to 45 Colt and visa versa, but it didn't even draw a comment. I post it here in the hope that 1917 fans will enjoy seeing something out of the ordinary ... or not ... maybe there are lots of them around

According to the S&W factory letter, serial number 179014 started out an standard Model of 1917 and shipped on August 18, 1927, to Tryon and Company of Philadelphia, PA. There were two Model 1917s in the shipment at $21.90 each. Since there are no US Property markings on the gun and it shipped to a dealer, I am assuming it can be considered a commercial variety ... tell me if that's a bad assumption.

However, as you can see, the revolver didn't stay an ordinary Model of 1917. Based on a * on the butt next to the serial number and a 7.49 date on the left side of the frame under the grip, Roy believes the revolver was returned to the factory and reworded to a target model in .45 Colt caliber. The factory "done good" because it shoots really sweet.

It has a post-war micrometer rear sight, what I believe to be the Brazilian 1917 type front sight, and post war Magna grips. The cylinder measures 1.570" and is numbered to the gun but, based on the correct headspace for 45 Colt, I believe the factory replaced the cylinder ... only wish I had the original .45 ACP cylinder to go with it.

My cheap camera doesn't take very good pictures at close range, but would be willing to invest in a good one if there is interest in seeing more pics.

Russ
S&WCA #853

linde · #2 03-15-2009, 10:33 AM

I posted this unusual Model 1917 under another thread that was discussing conversions from 45 ACP to 45 Colt and visa versa, but it didn't even draw a comment. I post it here in the hope that 1917 fans will enjoy seeing something out of the ordinary ... or not ... maybe there are lots of them around

According to the S&W factory letter, serial number 179014 started out an standard Model of 1917 and shipped on August 18, 1927, to Tryon and Company of Philadelphia, PA. There were two Model 1917s in the shipment at $21.90 each. Since there are no US Property markings on the gun and it shipped to a dealer, I am assuming it can be considered a commercial variety ... tell me if that's a bad assumption.

However, as you can see, the revolver didn't stay an ordinary Model of 1917. Based on a * on the butt next to the serial number and a 7.49 date on the left side of the frame under the grip, Roy believes the revolver was returned to the factory and reworded to a target model in .45 Colt caliber. The factory "done good" because it shoots really sweet.

It has a post-war micrometer rear sight, what I believe to be the Brazilian 1917 type front sight, and post war Magna grips. The cylinder measures 1.570" and is numbered to the gun but, based on the correct headspace for 45 Colt, I believe the factory replaced the cylinder ... only wish I had the original .45 ACP cylinder to go with it.

My cheap camera doesn't take very good pictures at close range, but would be willing to invest in a good one if there is interest in seeing more pics.

Russ
S&WCA #853

john traveler · #3 03-15-2009, 10:46 AM

I was wondering what the factory would do to the frame lug to accomodate both cylinders? Will a .45 ACP cylinder fit?

Old Corp · #4 03-15-2009, 10:47 AM

Thanks - interesting post, and timely for me. I just acquired a M1917 on GB and am trying to determine if it's a commercial or government gun. S/N is 670xx (located under bbl. and on cyl.) and it's obviously been refinished at some point. No gov't markings, and no S&W monogram. I don't know if any gov't markings and/or the monogram may have been buffed out prior to the reblue. No inscription or even S/N on the butt. The hammer and trigger appear to have been polished to a bright finish, almost thought they were nickel, but determined not. Someone had removed the lanyard and filled the hole with, of all things - lead. Just finished putting a lanyard loop from GP Inc. on it. It also was sporting some ****** Franzite genuine immitation stag plastic grips from the '50's (?) Looks like HopaLong Cassidy. I'm hoping to find some pre-war walnut to put on her.
Anyway - did not mean to hijack. Anyone that can chime in and inform us about gov't vs. commercial 1917's? Thanks.

john traveler · #5 03-15-2009, 10:58 AM

According to oldguns.net, the S&W M1917 s/n range was 5 through 175100, making yours a WW I production. I have seen 1937 Brazilian contract guns with serial numbers in the 180,000s through 190,000s if that helps.

Look for eaglehead government acceptance stamps on the cylinder, frame, and crane cutout area. Look for matching serial numbers under the barrel flat, the inside edge of the crane, on the back of the cylinder, and under the extractor. Look at the fit of the lanyard loop. If the grip frame was filed down to remove Government markings, there will be a sizeable gap between the lanyard loop stud and the frame.

linde · #6 03-15-2009, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by john traveler:
I was wondering what the factory would do to the frame lug to accomodate both cylinders? Will a .45 ACP cylinder fit?

Don't have a .45 ACP cylinder to try but my guess is the frame lug fits the longer .45 Colt cylinder and the shorter .45 ACP cylinder would have lots of end play when the cylinder is open. Can someone else add more?

Thanks, Russ

wheelgun610 · #7 03-15-2009, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Old Corp:
Thanks - interesting post, and timely for me. I just acquired a M1917 on GB.... No inscription or even S/N on the butt....

If there's no S/N on the frame, I'd be returning it to the seller - immediately!

Mark

linde · #8 03-15-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Old Corp:
Thanks - interesting post, and timely for me. I just acquired a M1917 on GB and am trying to determine if it's a commercial or government gun. S/N is 670xx (located under bbl. and on cyl.) and it's obviously been refinished at some point. No gov't markings, and no S&W monogram. I don't know if any gov't markings and/or the monogram may have been buffed out prior to the reblue. No inscription or even S/N on the butt. The hammer and trigger appear to have been polished to a bright finish, almost thought they were nickel, but determined not. Someone had removed the lanyard and filled the hole with, of all things - lead. Just finished putting a lanyard loop from GP Inc. on it. It also was sporting some ****** Franzite genuine immitation stag plastic grips from the '50's (?) Looks like HopaLong Cassidy. I'm hoping to find some pre-war walnut to put on her.
Anyway - did not mean to hijack. Anyone that can chime in and inform us about gov't vs. commercial 1917's? Thanks.

I hope someone more knowledgeable than I comes along to answer your(our) questions on commercial markings.

This specimen has the S&W monogram on the left side of the frame ... see pic

and the s/n and asterisk on the butt ... see pic

It also has the serial number in all the other normal places - including the replacement .45 Colt cylinder. I say replacement because the headspace on the .45 ACP is much greater to accomodate the moon clips than would be safe for shooting .45 Colt ... see pics below w/o and with .45 Colt cartridge.

Not sure I've answered your questions but thanks for your interest.

Russ

linde · #9 03-15-2009, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by john traveler:
According to oldguns.net, the S&W M1917 s/n range was 5 through 175100, making yours a WW I production. I have seen 1937 Brazilian contract guns with serial numbers in the 180,000s through 190,000s if that helps.

Look for eaglehead government acceptance stamps on the cylinder, frame, and crane cutout area. Look for matching serial numbers under the barrel flat, the inside edge of the crane, on the back of the cylinder, and under the extractor. Look at the fit of the lanyard loop. If the grip frame was filed down to remove Government markings, there will be a sizeable gap between the lanyard loop stud and the frame.

John, thanks very much for your questions.

I don't see any evidence of gap between the lanyard loop stud and the frame. As I mentioned to Old Corp, the s/n appears in all the proper places. Besides an assembly number on the underside of the barrel lug, there is a diamond shaped symbol where the barrel meets the frame.

There is also a mark/symbol on the crane that looks like a poorly stamped * and under it what looks like S2. I'm not sure what an eaglehead stamp looks like, but I can't get an eagle head out of it.

I will try to take pictures when I get (or borrow) a better camera.

Thanks again, Russ

Old Corp · #10 03-15-2009, 11:55 AM

Thanks Russ and others. Found some good light and looked harder. Did find a eagle's head stamp under barrel next to the 670xx and to the right of it, an 'S2'. The number 3047x on the frame (under crane) and to the left of that, another eagle's head and 'S3'. Not even a hint of monogram(s) on either side.
Top of barrel is the two - line inscription :
SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS USA
PATENTED DEC 17 1901 FEB 8 1908 SEPT 14 1909
Left side of barrel : S&W D.A.45

I'd appreciate any other insight, especially the numbers on the frame being different that the two matching numbers on cylinder and barrel.
Would a military armourer change out a frame and/or cylinder and barrel, no different than seeing a mix/match of parts on a 1911, or M1 or '03?
Thanks again.

john traveler · #11 03-15-2009, 12:05 PM

The eagle's head and S2, S3 are Government inspectors stamps. The numbers in the frame cutout and crane are assembly numbers (also marked on inside of sideplate) are used to match up the components after finishing. The matching serial number locations are: frame butt, cylinder face, underside of extractor, inside edge of crane, and underside of barrel flat. I too would be a mite concerned that the frame is missing the serial number. If the gun passed through an FFL holder's possession, he would need the serial number.

Old Corp · #12 03-15-2009, 12:13 PM

Thank you JT - I just wanted it as a shooter, it appears that with the 'severe' refinish and heavy leaning on the buffer, that any sort of collector interest is pretty much gone on this piece.
Maybe one day there'll be interest in 1950's plastic Franzite grips!!

linde · #13 03-15-2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stbryson:
Hello linde,

My guess is that the barrel on your gun was also replaced at the time of the caliber conversion. I base my guess on the fact that the barrel on your gun is machined for the later style ejector rod knob. While the factory order for all Hand Ejectors to have this type of knob was made on January 22, 1927 (per "History of Smith & Wesson 1857-1945, by Neal & Jinks), seven months before your gun shipped, I believe that 1917s continued to use the old style knob until much later due to the leftover WWI frames and parts.

A very nice looking and interesting gun.

Take care,

Steve,

Thanks for your response and kind words.

I suspect you're right about it having a replacement barrel, which would account for the missing inspector markings and "United States Property" on the barrel flat. It might also account for the S&W DA45 roll stamp being on the left side of the barrel and not the right side as described in SCSW-3rd.

I enlisted help from my wife who believes the funny shaped symbol in the crane could, in fact, be an eaglehead. The S2 below it would further confirm that the frame was military inspected. Were parts inspected individually, or only as an assembled revolver?

There are still some unanswered questions about this revolver's first life that make me wonder if this was a military inspected frame used to satisfy an order for a Commercial Model 1917. For example: the S&W monogram on the frame; being shipped to Tryon and Company of Philadelphia and not Springfield Armory; and the lack of U.S. Army Model 1917 on the butt.

Any further insights would be appreciated.

Russ
S&WCA #853

Catshooter · #14 03-15-2009, 04:40 PM

Very nice roller Russ, thanks for showing it.

I too have a customized '17. It started life as military weapon. Then someone added a post war rear sight just like yours and a .455 barrel 6.375 inches long. The cylinder is still .45 ACP but with very large throats. The extractor matches the cylinder but they aren't original either.

No re-blue on mine. I love it. Yours would match mine perfectly, by the way!

Cat

linde · #15 03-15-2009, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stbryson:
Hello Russ,

Another possibility for your gun is that the gun was totally rebuilt at the time of the 1949 rework, with the serial number of the original gun transferred to the new gun. If that was the case, your gun probably would have the later style hammer block that was introduced late in WWII.

Take care,

Steve,

Surprisingly, the gun does not currently have the post WWII hammer block, although it could have been removed by a previous owner. I do believe your premise that the gun was virtually rebuilt at the factory in 1949. That said, it's becoming increasingly academic whether it started out as a Military or Commercial variation in its first life.

Another premise: In Roy Jink's Revised Tenth Anniversary Edition book, pg 206, he describes the late 1940s design evolution of the .45 Hand Ejector Model of 1950, Target. "The firm did produce a few .45 Hand Ejector Model of 1917s with target sights but they were not satisfied with the results". With the rework date stamp of 7/49, I can't help but wonder if this gun wasn't a product of that design evolution.

Oh, the thrill of the hunt! Thanks again,

Russ

handejector · #16 03-15-2009, 05:23 PM

Your gun started life as a commercial. That fact is more than substantiated by the serial number and ship date.
Many early commercials have parts- barrels and cylinders and even frames that do NOT have inspector's stamps. I suppose they had not yet been inspected. I have seen many commercial 1917's, but I don't recall one with all three parts stamped. One or two, yes, not all three.
Steve is right about the large mushroom knob being used later than other models. They had zillions of the rods, and barrels cut for them.

If you cock the hammer, and post a pic of the side, I can tell you if the gun had the modern hammer block.

jimmyj · #17 03-15-2009, 06:07 PM

Hi, Old Corp:
I would be interested in those Franzite Stag Grips from the "1950s".
Jimmy

linde · #18 03-15-2009, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by handejector:
Your gun started life as a commercial. That fact is more than substantiated by the serial number and ship date.
Many early commercials have parts- barrels and cylinders and even frames that do NOT have inspector's stamps. I suppose they had not yet been inspected. I have seen many commercial 1917's, but I don't recall one with all three parts stamped. One or two, yes, not all three.
Steve is right about the large mushroom knob being used later than other models. They had zillions of the rods, and barrels cut for them.

If you cock the hammer, and post a pic of the side, I can tell you if the gun had the modern hammer block.

Lee,

Appreciate confirmation that she started out as a Commercial variation. Here are a couple of pictures with the hammer cocked - hope they show what you're looking for.

Thank you for this S&W Forum - its great!

Russ

H Richard · #19 03-16-2009, 08:16 AM

On the S/N', with the 175100 being the top of the range for WW1 guns, there were a batch of frames found in the factory from WW1 range, and used to fill an order to Brazil in 1946. I have S/N 170729 out of this group and Roy advised was shipped in Apr. 1946 as part of this group. It is a round top, rather than the flat top made up for Brazil in 1937.

Whoever did the work on your 1917, it looks very well done.

linde · #20 03-16-2009, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by H Richard:
On the S/N', with the 175100 being the top of the range for WW1 guns, there were a batch of frames found in the factory from WW1 range, and used to fill an order to Brazil in 1946. I have S/N 170729 out of this group and Roy advised was shipped in Apr. 1946 as part of this group. It is a round top, rather than the flat top made up for Brazil in 1937.

Whoever did the work on your 1917, it looks very well done.

Thanks, everything points to the S&W factory doing the rework in July 1949.

Does you '46 Brazil have target sights?

Russ

linde · #21 03-16-2009, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Catshooter:
Very nice roller Russ, thanks for showing it.

I too have a customized '17. It started life as military weapon. Then someone added a post war rear sight just like yours and a .455 barrel 6.375 inches long. The cylinder is still .45 ACP but with very large throats. The extractor matches the cylinder but they aren't original either.

No re-blue on mine. I love it. Yours would match mine perfectly, by the way!

Cat

Thanks ... proud to share it.

Someday I would love to see a display of 1917 revolvers and its many variations. This web site does a great service by allowing members to post contributions in response to a "let's show em" thread, but it's sometimes difficult to pull them together.

What I'd love to see is a "Display Room" on the forum that "stays open" for historically significant models &/or variations without having to search a multitude of treads. I am a relatively new member, so this may have already been tried &/or ruled out. I'll submit such a suggestion on the Administration forum and see how the owner/operator reacts.

Russ

Hondo44 · #22 03-17-2009, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by linde:
According to the S&W factory letter, serial number 179014 started out an standard Model of 1917 and shipped on August 18, 1927, to Tryon and Company of Philadelphia, PA. There were two Model 1917s in the shipment at $21.90 each. Since there are no US Property markings on the gun and it shipped to a dealer, I am assuming it can be considered a commercial variety ... tell me if that's a bad assumption.

However, as you can see, the revolver didn't stay an ordinary Model of 1917. Based on a * on the butt next to the serial number and a 7.49 date on the left side of the frame under the grip, Roy believes the revolver was returned to the factory and reworded to a target model in .45 Colt caliber. The factory "done good" because it shoots really sweet.

It has a post-war micrometer rear sight, what I believe to be the Brazilian 1917 type front sight, and post war Magna grips. The cylinder measures 1.570" and is numbered to the gun but, based on the correct headspace for 45 Colt, I believe the factory replaced the cylinder ... only wish I had the original .45 ACP cylinder to go with it.

Russ
S&WCA #853

Russ,
That is a beauty! It definitely looks to me like the long throw hammer. Those early N frame diamond magnas with the thicker top really look good on it. It may just be the picture, but is that a 5 1/2" barrel standard on all 1917s or is it shorter?
I have a military 1917 conversion as well but not by the factory, by Micro sight, using the prewar rear sight which didn't reguire such a high front sight. I love the Micro wide spur target hammer on it (stamped Micro if you look real hard):

I'll post the entire gun when I find the picture.

Thx,

linde · #23 03-17-2009, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hondo44:
Russ,
That is a beauty! It definitely looks to me like the long throw hammer. Those early N frame diamond magnas with the thicker top really look good on it. It may just be the picture, but is that a 5 1/2" barrel standard on all 1917s or is it shorter?
I have a military 1917 conversion as well but not by the factory, by Micro sight, using the prewar rear sight which didn't reguire such a high front sight. I love the Micro wide spur target hammer on it (stamped Micro if you look real hard):

I'll post the entire gun when I find the picture.

Thx,

Jim,

Thanks. It is a long hammer throw and has the standard length 5 1/2" barrel. Probably common to all Commercial variations, the caliber roll mark is on the left side of the barrel and is missing the "U.S. Property" under the barrel.

Great looking hammer on your 1917. I'm not familiar with Micro sight but am looking forward to seeing more pics of yours, especially the pre-war rear adjustable sight and low profile front sight.

Russ
S&WCA #853

Art Doc · #24 03-17-2009, 06:37 AM

Would S&W do such a radical conversion? I realize it has a factory service mark but does that prove they did the total conversion?

linde · #25 03-17-2009, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SaxonPig:
Would S&W do such a radical conversion? I realize it has a factory service mark but does that prove they did the total conversion?

Good question ... hope someone with close factory ties will respond.

In his 12/6/89 factory letter, Roy was only able to say "It is my opinion that the star on the butt with the serial number indicates that the revolver was returned to the factory and reworked to a target model in .45 Colt caliber."

I look forward to making my first SWHF research project finding the factory work order for this gun ... am mailing my membership application today!

Russ

feralmerril · #26 03-17-2009, 03:54 PM

Except for the front sight and different grips I would swear that is the one I had built up 35 years ago by Dan King! It isnt as I also had the hammer heavy beavertailed, and the front sight I had it look like a colt trooper ramp.
I had a nice 1917 and found a brand new/old .455 clyinder I belive from sarco (?) when they were in North Hollywood, Calif. I had old Dan King who ran a small gunsmithing shop in culver city do the work. He fitted up the .455 clyinder and extra crane to .45 colt, put a red insert, milled the frame and put me on a WO smith target sight. I had a true convertable .45 ACP and .45 colt when he got through. Had him beavertail the hammer, and I had put S&W targets on it. In those days I dont belive I had over $300 in the job COUNTING the price of the gun and parts! I sadly traded it off to a friend that has now passed. I do belive I remember haveing to keep the .45 colt bullets a little shorter in weight. Otherwise I would have thought that my gun!

Pontiaker · #27 03-17-2009, 09:47 PM

Hondo44 · #28 03-17-2009, 09:48 PM

Well there's my 1917 right above. The link would just not cooperate for me so my son posted it.
Started life as a standard WW I US Army 1917. Serial range 139000, all matching numbers, US Property stamped under barrel and butt, flaming bombs and eagle heads in all the proper places, no inspector initials, S&W D.A. 45 on left side of barrel, lanyard ring (hidden in recess of target grip butt) with grooved trigger.

It's 99% of a factory equal refinish. Poor lighting makes it look like wear on muzzle and cylinder but it is not.

Redfield gold 'square' tipped front sight blade milled in original base and pinned in with one solid, flush pin.

Pre war factory rear adjustable target sight with the two elevation screws (one adjusting and one lock screw) with horizontal grooves on rear of sight base just below blade.

Hammer detail can be seen above in my earlier post. Stamped Micro and is a thing of beauty and craftsmanship in the "King double cockeyed" style. An exact .500" wide fully checkered spur with a side view contour exactly like a factory narrow hammer of that period including the teardrop bump under the tip. This gun as an action like KY with about a 1 1/2 lb. SA pull.

The grips have post-war emblems, a right hand palm swell that melts in your hand and flared bottom. They appear to be maple.

There is no indication that this was done by the factory but certainly is that quality. Because of Micro hammer I can only surmise it ws done by Microsight, but I don't know.

What I do know is that even with my old eyes (62) even I can put a cylinder full into a ragged hole at 20 yards.

john traveler · #29 03-17-2009, 09:53 PM

feralmerill,

That was probably Sherwood International, the gun parts surplus store in North Hollywood. I visited them for the first time in 1968, and that sounded familiar. Later, in the early 1970s they moved to Northridge, CA.

linde · #30 03-18-2009, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hondo44:
Well there's my 1917 right above.

Redfield gold 'square' tipped front sight blade milled in original base and pinned in with one solid, flush pin ... Pre war factory rear adjustable target sight with the two elevation screws ... Hammer stamped Micro and is a thing of beauty and craftsmanship in the "King double cockeyed" style. This gun as an action like KY with about a 1 1/2 lb. SA pull.

I can only surmise it ws done by Microsight, but I don't know ... What I do know is that even with my old eyes (62) even I can put a cylinder full into a ragged hole at 20 yards.

Jim,

That is one awesome 1917 target conversion! I really like the sleek pre-war rear sight and lower profile front sight. Whoever did it, they did a professional job. Thanks for sharing ... I had hoped there were others out there.

Russ

feralmerril · #31 03-18-2009, 11:20 AM

John traveler, you are right! I belive it was sherwood! It was off sherman way.

midewo · #32 07-23-2012, 10:09 PM

all,
greetings from disneyland / so cal orange county!
and thank you all for helping me identify my (recently deceased) father's favorite revolver. He just loved this piece and as many have mentioned it is a sweet shooter. i have enclosed some pix and the serial number is 19541, it has micro-sights and the s&w logo on the right side. no other markings other tan the S.&W. D.A. .45 on the left. My family has tasked me with inventorying my dad's collection.
based on all your pictures, i think / am pretty sure my dad's gun is a 1917. i truly appreciate your comments and confirmation.....
again, heartiest thanks to all contributors for this thread

/mike

DCWilson · #33 07-23-2012, 11:09 PM

Midewo, welcome to the forum from another Orange Countian.

Your dad's gun is definitely a Model of 1917 that was refinished, given a jeweled hammer and trigger, and modified with the installation of Micro front and rear sights. I have a similar revolver that originally chambered the uncommon .455 round. It was made a little before your 1917, and was converted to .45 Colt after WWI ended. Then in the 1960s (I am guessing), the frame was milled to permit installation of the Micro sights.

The stocks on your gun cannot be earlier than 1968 based on design features. That may be about the time it was spruced up and given the target sights.

I bet that gun is capable of great accuracy. Shoot it in good health.

bmg60 · #34 07-23-2012, 11:21 PM

Hi
In the 1942 thru 1949 the factory would do what ever they had parts for.
I have a 1917 that was completly rebuild in to a 38 spec outdoorsman.
with a new 38 spec cyl. numbered to the gun and a barrel 6 1/2 inch numbered to the gun.
with target sights. it was done in 1942.
I don't have a picture of it at this time it is in the bottom of the safe.
Jim Fisher.

Here is a original 1917 Target shipped just as you see it with humpback hammer, Magna,s and Target sights with a McGivern gold bead front sight.
shipped to Canada. Gun is all orginal 99% Condition. Cal is 45 ACP.

feralmerril · #35 07-24-2012, 02:20 AM

Go back to my old post #26 from 3 years ago. The front sight configeration is a little different, and I had the hammer beavertailed. Otherwise that looks like my gun that I had customised in the early 70s. I had two clyinders and a extra crane to make it truely convertable 45 acp and 45 colt. It worked well too. I traded it back to a close friend that I had got it from after I had the work done. Its been since about 1975.

feralmerril · #36 07-24-2012, 02:40 AM

I also have this triplelock that was fixed sighted and sent back twice to the factory in 1949 and again in 1950. I belive the target sights were put on then. I have a factory letter. It is a little unclear as RJ simply "assumed" the work was done then.
Notice the front sight configeration is the same as the subject gun.